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Messages - Student of History

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61
Hello,
I have read with interest the postings on TAII and his second wife Princess Ekaterina Dolgorukaya.
I was just wondering why Tsar Alexander II's marriage to Princess Ekaterina Dolgorukova was considered morganatic when she was the daughter of Prince Michael Dolgoruky, who was of an established Ruirik dynastic family?
Many thanks in advance,
SOH

62
Student of History :
Responding to this quote  : « What a stunning jacket! Yes they are the swirls I was referring.  Although I have also seen a uniform with a double row (plain with no swirls) secured in three places.  Think a piece of cord wrapped around the top and bottom of a (gold?)button on the left, centre and right of a jacket.  Starting with the first double line from shoulder to shoulder and repeated to the waist of the jacket approx: an inch or two apart.
In the absence of an image the closest to a visual representation I can do, is:

0=====0====0
0====0====0
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Have you ever come across a Russian uniform like this by any chance? »------------
Unfortunately your description doesn’t ring any bell. Did it have only 3 rows of cords? Was the jacket or tunic quite long? The old style Streltsy uniforms had some cords like this but they had 5 or 6 rows of them. So did a project for « new » uniforms done for Nicholas II (based on these old style caftans) but the drawings I have show 5 or 6 rows of cords too. This project never came into being but – oddly enough! – it inspired the early Soviet uniforms which had 3 rows of 2 buttons cloth pieces on their shirts & long coats.

Now regarding Hussars' uniforms, here are 1910 colour plates showing all the Hussar Regiments. This one shows the 2 Guards Hussar Regiments (His Majesty’s in red & blue, Grodno Hussars in raspberry & green) bottom row left (for each regiment: officers on the left, enlisted men on the right) :
http://www.bibliotekar.ru/rusForma/5.htm

Starting on the bottom row of this plate are the Line regiments :
http://www.bibliotekar.ru/rusForma/17.htm
Here are the others :
http://www.bibliotekar.ru/rusForma/18.htm
http://www.bibliotekar.ru/rusForma/19.htm

As you can see, they had very colourful uniforms. The jacket you found stunning ( http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v737/Atamanets/2031A.jpg )
belonged to a junior officer from the 3rd Elizavetgradsky « Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaevna » Hussar Regiment. Olga was named its Chief for her 16th birthday. As a special honour, the Regiment later received a white pelisse worn on the shoulders.

More about her regiment here :
http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=2791.0

As all the others, Olga’s hussars looked even more stunning with all their accoutrements. Here’s a photo from Gerard Gorokhoff very interesting book « The Russian Imperial Cavalry » showing a full dress uniform of a junior officer from the 11th Iziumsky Hussars : in 1912, as a special honour, their tunic (dolman) went from dark blue to red and they received a dark blue pelisse. Unlike most Line Hussar regiments, they also had the Guards’ pattern chain gimp (woven braid) instead of the usual hussar braid. The pattern for the zigzag laced pouch belt was common to all Line regiments and the silver sash belt was the same for all Hussars (Guards & Line) :
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v737/Atamanets/Hussars-copie1.gif

Now here’s a photo of a junior officer from His Majesty’s Hussars in full dress. Quite similar to the Iziumsky except it had a pouch belt pattern specific to the regiment. The beaver fur busby with the star of St. Andrew (instead of a double-headed eagle plate) was specific to the 2 Guard Hussar regiments.
 http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v737/Atamanets/1006B-copie.jpg

Here’s the regiment’s sabretache with its elaborate embroideries which, alone, must have cost a fortune!:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v737/Atamanets/1006N.jpg

And here’s a photo of the beaver fur-trimmed white pelisse worn by the regiment’s officers :
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v737/Atamanets/1005C-copie.jpg

With all this, along with their richly embroidered saddle cloth, His Majesty’s Guards Hussars were said to have the most splendid (and expensive!) uniform of the Russian Army. It was probably the case!

BTW Nicholas II chose this regiment’s uniform to wear for his wedding :
http://www.corbisimages.com/images/HM001133.jpg?size=67&uid=9D620D9B-2CA3-4740-ADD9-654606DB8A22
His tunic has survived. I have seen his red tunic (along with his sabretache, visor cap & leather boots) at an exhibition in the USA. After his wedding the tunic had been stored away and labeled «В этом доломане Его Bеличество брaкосочетался сохранять навсегда» (In this dolman His Majesty was married, preserve forever.) The monarchy wasn't preserved but the last monarch's dolman was! It now can be seen on display at the Alexander Palace in Tsarskoe Selo, not far from where the Tsar’s Dressing Room was.

Now the other Guards Hussar Regiment : the Grodno Hussars. Here’s a nice colour portrait of Spanish Prince Jaime de Borbon who served – and fought - in the regiment for a while.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v737/Atamanets/jacquier_bourbon_big.jpg
He was viewed by some as the legitimate Heir to both the Thrones of Spain and France, no less! More about him here (with a photo in his Russian Hussar uniform) :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaime,_Duke_of_Madrid

(Interestingly enough, at the same time, another French prince, Louis-Napoleon Bonaparte - considered by some as « Napoleon VI » - also served in a Russian Guards’ Cavalry Regiment : Her Majesty’s Guards Lancers, which he commanded 1897-1902. I don’t know if those 2 claimants to the French Throne were on speaking terms!)

The Grodno Hussars had silver braid and lace. Here is their less elaborate raspberry & silver sabretache :
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v737/Atamanets/P17-copie.jpg






Hi Daniel,
Well, it has taken me a couple of days to go through everything, but I have emerged from the abyss! Thanks so much for enabling the detour into the Russian military historical unifroms closet! It was most enjoyable!
I'm not surprised my poor description didn't ring any bells!  From what I can ascertain there were about 5-6 rows.  The jacket  appeared to be a normal length and secured with the a light coloured waist belt (approx 3 rows of cloth).  The uniform looks to be quite understated, although the sleeves do appear to have brocade or what looks like a forearm protector.  There was no fancy sholder decoration (like TNII). The solider held a hat in hand which had a large star on its front with a long black plume at its back. He also had a long sword and what looks like a satchel with a (white?) border around the bottom and sides and what looked to be an emblem of a double headed eagle, which I haven't yet found anywhere.  Any further ideas? Do you know of any other armies besides the Russians that would carry a double-headed eagle crest?
Many thanks,
SOH

63
Gentlemen, I am astounded by your knowledge!  Thank you so much for sharing so generously, you have opened up a whole new world in my study of Russian history.
I find it intriguing that TNII refused to promote himself given the administrative and practical disruption to the 'chain of command'... I wonder if it was to spite or in support of his father's wishes...

64
Hi again Richard!
No need to apologize for your ignorance. Russian uniforms are a vast and very complicated world! Would the horizontal cords, swirls and 8s look like this?:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v737/Atamanets/2031A.jpg
If so, only the Hussar Regiments had them. I’ll show the various braids they used later.
[/quote]

What a stunning jacket! Yes they are the swirls I was referring.  Although I have also seen a uniform with a double row (plain with no swirls) secured in three places.  Think a piece of cord wrapped around the top and bottom of a (gold?)button on the left, centre and right of a jacket.  Starting with the first double line from shoulder to shoulder and repeated to the waist of the jacket approx: an inch or two apart.
In the absence of an image the closest to a visual representation I can do, is:

0=====0====0
0====0====0
0====0====0

Have you ever come across a Russian uniform like this by any chance? 

65
That is very generous of you Daniel, to explain it all so thoroughly. Thank you!  I see what Mike means by it being a science like heraldlry!
If you don't mind, I have another quick question regarding some of the features of the Hussar Life Guard uniform TN II is wearing in pic 1 (of original post).  I have noticed in militia pictures that (and apologies now for not calling it by its correct name) on most of the uniforms there are gold cords that go horizontally across the length of the jacket from button to button.  I noticed on the nobility and junior officers that they had 'swirls', like figure 8's on some of these cords as well.  Do all Russian military regiments have these 'swirls' or are some just straight horizontal lines across the jacket from button to button? (once again apologies for my ignorance!!!)

66
Thank you so much AP.  I am just new to all this, so will definitely look up more information on the OSA.

67
Thank you for your prompt replies.  I was referring to the last illustration ofTNII wearing a blue sash over the right shoudler.  I notice even some modern royals wear a blue sash over the right shoulder.  Is the sash just decorative?  Or does it represent something.  And if so, is there a different meaning attached to it when it is worn over the left v's right shoulder?

68
Thank you for your detailed explanations.  Can I ask what the sash represents?  I notice that the Tzar and some of the nobility where it over their uniform and I am curious to understand it's purpose.
Many thanks in advance.

69
Hi DanlScott,
If it is not too much trouble, would it be possible for you to post your picture of the Caucasion Engineer Battalion please? I would be very interested to see what it looks like.
Many thanks

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