Messages

226

The Tudors / Re: "The Other Boleyn Girl" dramatized?

« on: May 12, 2008, 07:49:16 AM »

I think the perception of Anne's cruelty depends on your view of which was the valid marriage and whether you admire Catherine of Aragon of not.

Ultimately the person responsible for how Catherine of Aragon and Princess Mary were treated lies with one person and that person was Henry VIII.  I certainly believe that Anne wasn't adverse to emphasising her political pre eminence before and after her marriage.

The line that Henry would have done whatever Anne suggested particularly after their marriage in 1533 doesn't hold much water although its often used to lay the blame for how Catherine and Mary were treated on her.

It largely depends on hostile witnesses and uses the convention of the time that a Monarch was never wrong (just surrounded by bad advisors, deceived by evil counsellors etc).

She certainly had no reason to be kind to Catherine and Mary (they were a significant threat to her security and the security of her own potential children) - A 16th Century Court was no place to be a wilting kindly flower!

The one thing that offends me about Gregory's book and the BBC adaptation and now the big screen version is that the original story is stunningly good in its own right and doesn't need the embellishments.

227

The Windsors / Re: King George VI and Queen Elizabeth (nee Bowes Lyon)

« on: May 09, 2008, 08:59:43 AM »

I think hate's quite a strong word - with regard Edwina Mountbatten - my favourite of the Queen Mother's comments on Edwina was at her death and burial at sea - its quite a famous one - "Dear Edwina always liked to make a splash" and i think there's another from during the war when Edwina wanted to see the Queen in connection with the red cross - along the lines of "nothing more tiresome than a reformed .....!" can't remember the word female equivelant of rake or something like that!  Disapprove perhaps but hate i don't think so?

I think its fairly well known that the Queen Mother and the present Queen found Louis Mountbatten far too pushy and that the Late George VI was well aware of his cousin's pretensions (and Louis spent his whole life emphasising his Royal Connections - there are accounts of him at meetings in Whitehall ending them abruptly with the statement that he was expected at the Palace or was due to see the King).  Also George VI was well aware how Louis had switched his affection from Bertie then Duke of York to Edward Prince of Wales back in the early 20's.

In fact one thing that did unite the Queen Mother and The Duchess of Windsor was their distrust of Louis Mountbatten.

As to the Queen Mother's "hatred" of Wallis - i am still not sold on it being hate - distaste, dislike perhaps the odd moment of hate but pure unadulterated hatred takes a lot of energy and to be honest particularly in her later years the QM was shall we say rather more fond of putting her feet up.

Both the Windsor's preferred to lay the blame for their treatment on the "wife who hates us both" ie Queen Elizabeth aswell as David's mother Queen Mary - it suited their view of Bertie (George VI) as the henpecked weak husband - the reality is that George VI was quite clear minded and determined about how they should or should not be treated. 

I think many of the biographies that have been published over the last thirty years have over emphasised the idea of a "feud" - bitterness, dislike, resentment on both sides is certainly true - hatred i am not convinced.
 

228

The Tudors / Re: Related

« on: May 08, 2008, 10:02:11 AM »

The below lines would supersede the above:

Line 3:  This is the most senior British Line that connects to the Romanov family. ( Maria Vladimirovna's son would also have a claim through his father through his descent from Queen Victoria's eldest daughter how his mother's descent from Prince Alfred is senior)

Henry VII - Margaret Tudor - James V of Scots - Mary Stuart Queen of Scots - James Stuart I and VI King of England, Scotland and Ireland - Elizabeth Stuart - Sophia Countess Palatine - George I of Great Britain and Hannover - George II of Great Britain and Hannover - Frederick Prince of Wales - George III - William Duke of Kent - Victoria of Great Britain - Alfred Duke of Edinburgh - Victoria Melita - Prince Vladimir Kyrillovitch of Russia - Maria Vladimirovna Romanov - George Romanov

Line 4: This is the second most senior Royal Line to the Romanov's (descent from the eldest daughter of George II of Great Britain)

Henry VII - Margaret Tudor - James V of Scots - Mary Stuart Queen of Scots - James Stuart I and VI King of England, Scotland and Ireland - Elizabeth Stuart - Sophia Countess Palatine - George I of Great Britain and Hannover - George II of Great Britain and Hannover - Anne, Princess Royal - Princess Carolina of Orange-Nassau -Frederick William, Prince of Nassau-Weilburg - Wilhelm, Duke of Nassau - Princess Therese of Nassau - Duchess Alexandra of Oldenburg ( Grand Duchess Alexandra Petrovna of Russia) - (HIH Grand Duke Nicholas Nikolaevich  no issue) and HIH  Grand Duke Peter Nikolaevich of Russia - HH Prince Roman Petrovitch of Russia - Prince Nicholas Romanovich Romanov.

Line 5: This is the next senior line descent from the second daughter of George II.  Note HIH Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna is a descendant in this line however her descendants have a senior claim through their Swedish Royal Line (descent from Caroline Matilda of Wales sister of George III of Great Britain)

Henry VII - Margaret Tudor - James V of Scots - Mary Stuart Queen of Scots - James Stuart I and VI King of England, Scotland and Ireland - Elizabeth Stuart - Sophia Countess Palatine - George I of Great Britain and Hannover - George II of Great Britain - Mary Princess of Great Britain - Frederick III Landgrave of Hesse Kassell - William X of Hesse Kassell - Louise of Hesse Kassell - Prince William of Denmark (george I of Greece) - Princess Alexandra of Greece and Denmark - HIH Grand Duke Dmitri Pavlovitch of Russia -

Line 6: This descent is same as above but follows as Marie is the younger daughter of George I of Greece.

Henry VII - Margaret Tudor - James V of Scots - Mary Stuart Queen of Scots - James Stuart I and VI King of England, Scotland and Ireland - Elizabeth Stuart - Sophia Countess Palatine - George I of Great Britain and Hannover - George II of Great Britain - Mary Princess of Great Britain - Frederick III Landgrave of Hesse Kassell - William X of Hesse Kassell - Louise of Hesse Kassell - Prince William of Denmark (george I of Greece) - Princess Marie of Greece and Denmark - HH Princess Nina Georgievna  of Russia & HH Princess Xenia Georgievna of Russia


Line 7: Descent of Nicholas II from Henry VII through his mother Dagmar of Denmark - same line as the above two but junior as Dagmar would follow in succession after her brother William.  (the only eligible descendants today of this line or firstly the descendants of HIH the Grand Duchess Xenia Alexandrovna then the descendants of HIH The Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna)

Henry VII - Margaret Tudor - James V of Scots - Mary Stuart Queen of Scots - James Stuart I and VI King of England, Scotland and Ireland - Elizabeth Stuart - Sophia Countess Palatine - George I of Great Britain and Hannover - George II of Great Britain - Mary Princess of Great Britain - Frederick III Landgrave of Hesse Kassell - William X of Hesse Kassell - Louise of Hesse Kassell - Dagmar Princess of Denmark (the Empress Marie Feodorovna of Russia) - Nicholas II of Russia

Line 8: This is the next in order descent from the youngest daughter of George II - however Sandro's descendants have a senior claim through their descent from Xenia Alexandrovna whilst the daughter of Sandro's brother Nadejda married a Mountbatten and her descendants also have a higher descent.

Henry VII - Margaret Tudor - James V of Scots - Mary Stuart Queen of Scots - James Stuart I and VI King of England, Scotland and Ireland - Elizabeth Stuart - Sophia Countess Palatine - George I of Great Britain and Hannover - George II of Great Britain - Princess Louise of Great Britain - Princess Sophia Magdalena of Denmark - King Gustav VI of Sweden - Princess Sophie of Sweden - Princess Cecile of Baden ( Grand Duchess Olga Feodorovna)  - issue - Grand Duke Nicholas Mikhailovich of Russia,  Grand Duchess Anastasia Mikhailovna of Russia, Grand Duke Michael Mikhailovich of Russia, Grand Duke George Mikhailovich of Russia, Grand Duke Alexander Mikhailovich (sandro), Grand Duke Sergei Mikhailovich of Russia, Grand Duke Alexei Mikhailovich of Russia.

229

The Tudors / Re: Related

« on: May 08, 2008, 09:59:41 AM »

All the Romanovs have numerous lines of descent from Henry VII of England and Elizabeth Plantagenet (of York).  
As all of them descend through Sophie of Hannover all of them (who haven't married Roman Catholics) remain theoretically in the British Line of descent - the highest ranking Romanov in that line is Maria Vladimirovna (whose senior descent is through her grandmother Victoria Melita a grand daughter of Queen Victoria), the next in the list would be the head of the Romanov Family Association Prince Nicholas Romanov's daughters (he married an italian catholic so wouldn't be eligible - his children as Orthodox would retain their rights though)  - please note arguments about the validity of marriages wouldn't matter as Morganatic marriages aren't recognised in Britain (the only bar is lack of legitimacy or Roman Catholicism).
These lines are all based on male preference primogeniture as operated by the UK system.

NOTE 1:

As James I and VI has two lines of descent from Henry VII (the most direct is through his mother Mary however he was also descended through his father Lord Darnley) all lines from him to the Romanov's would actually count as two lines of descent.

Henry VII - Margaret Tudor - Margaret Douglas Countess of Lennox - Henry Stuart Lord Darnley - James VI and I
or
Henry VII - Margaret Tudor - James V - Mary I of Scots - James VI and I

These two lines give you a Tudor descent for all the Imperial family through the Prussian Royal House - this is the line that would effectively put them in the British Succession behind every single male line descendant of George I .

Line 1 - Descent through the only daughter of George I of Great Britain

Henry VII - Margaret Tudor - James V of Scots - Mary Stuart Queen of Scots - James Stuart I and VI King of England, Scotland and Ireland - Elizabeth Stuart - Sophia Countess Palatine - George I of Great Britain and Hannover - Sophia Dorothea of Hannover - Prince August William of Prussia - Frederick William II of Prussia - Frederick William III of Prussia - Princess Charlotte of Russia (the Empress Alexandra Feodorovna of Russia) - Alexander II of Russia - Alexander III of Russia - Nicholas II of Russia.

Line 2 - Descent through the only surviving sister of George I Sophia Charlotte of Hannover.

Henry VII - Margaret Tudor - James V of Scots - Mary Stuart Queen of Scots - James Stuart I and VI King of England, Scotland and Ireland - Elizabeth Stuart - Sophia Countess Palatine - Sophia Charlotte of Hannover - Frederick William I of Prussia - Prince August William of Prussia - Frederick William II of Prussia - Frederick William III of Prussia -  Princess Charlotte of Russia (the Empress Alexandra Feodorovna of Russia) - Alexander II of Russia - Alexander III of Russia - Nicholas II of Russia.

--------------------------------------------------

Will post the following lines in a moment - all the ones posted in the next message supersede the above

230

The Windsors / Re: King George VI and Queen Elizabeth (nee Bowes Lyon)

« on: May 07, 2008, 07:04:44 AM »

Personally I always thought "Cookie" rather unpleasant.  I think it is possible to admire both Wallis and the late QM - very different women and certainly different characters.

I think the accepted view of "Wallis" by the Royal Family as a "common adventuress" was largely used because they couldn't quite bring themselves to place blame where it really lay which was with the Duke of Windsor.  She was also a very convenient excuse as to how his behaviour and attitudes developed during the run up to the death of his father and beyond - personally i doubt she changed his personality all that much.

Actually quite a few of the Queen Mother's comments on Wallis and David have survived -  "the lowest of the low", "he used to be so kind to us" etc-  they are perhaps not as widely known.  Personally of all The Duke and Duchess of Windsor's "bon mots" about his family my personal favourite is Mr and Mrs Temple Sr (parents of the child star - which was what Princess Elizabeth was in the 30's) - its a little less cutting than "Cookie" which given that the Queen Mother was quite concious of her "plumpness" in the thirties was designed to be hurtful.

On a personal note i think family nicknames are fine to use - i think that nicknames that were originally intended to wound aren't really that appropriate for anyone to use.

231

Films and TV shows about the Romanovs and Imperial Russia / Re: The Lost Prince

« on: May 04, 2008, 07:05:22 AM »

Sorry Clemence  - A very close relationship up until Mary Adelaide's death i think from what I've read - Princess Mary Adelaide was quite a character she was exuberant, popular with the public, extravagant, quite a larger than life figure - her exuberance perhaps explains why Princess May was quieter and more reserved - she was probably the peacemaker in her family the eldest and only daughter. But their relationship i believe was fairly close - the Tecks were a quite contented happy family despite Mary Adelaides complete inability to live within her means (and her varying attempts to get her cousin Queen Victoria to make the Duke of Teck a Royal Highness). 
Pope Hennessy has a lot more on May's early life - its a good read if a little old fashioned now (it was written shortly after Mary's death and feels a bit dated)

232

Films and TV shows about the Romanovs and Imperial Russia / Re: The Lost Prince

« on: May 04, 2008, 03:50:26 AM »

I assume you mean the relationship between Queen Mary and her mother in law Queen Alexandra (as Mary's mother Princess Mary Adelaide of Cambridge, Duchess of Tech had died in 1897).  From what I've read the relationship between "May" and "Alix" or "Mother Dear" as her children called her was okay - at the time of the coronation - Queen Alexandra along with Dagmar locked themselves away at Sandringham, which was probably a blessing as she kept telling people it should be Eddy's coronation not Georgie's also according to Mary's letters to her aunt the Grand Duchess of Mecklenburg Strelitz, Queen Alexandra largely at Dagmar's urging was demanding precedence that wasn't rightfully hers as Queen Dowager, the relationship wasn't always easy throughout her marriage largely because Queen Alexandra retained considerable influence over her children whom she continued to treat as children well into their middle age.

Queen Mary had known the Wales' all her life however after Eddy's death and her eventual marriage to George V - the Wales' girls including "Alix" preferred to refer to her as "poor May" and the name stuck - the only one of her sister in laws Queen Mary got on really well with was Princess Maud (later Queen of Norway)

233

Films and TV shows about the Romanovs and Imperial Russia / Re: Olga: The Last Grand Duchess (DVD)

« on: November 17, 2007, 06:31:28 AM »

Thanks for the links bit simplistic but quite interesting and nice to some of the rare footage- almost entirely based on the Ian Vorres book i took it - without too much anaylsis.

It wasn't so much harbouring Russian Soldiers it was the fact that she entertained in occupied Denmark to the distaste of her neighbours those russians who had joined the german army (many white russian emigrees did once Hitler invaded the Soviet Union) and were stationed in the area and came to pay their respects to the Grand Duchess - at best it was the kindly gesture of a naive woman or (to some) it was collaboration. 


(Thanks for this link! I watched it all, though it made my computer freeze several times. It was very interesting. I had no idea Olga was in trouble for harboring Russian soldiers who didn't want to return to the Soviet Union, and that is why she moved to Canada.

I was also interested in the top secret files on Olga in this situation. Could this be why the "Zahle papers" are also still confidential?_