Messages

91

Nicholas II / Re: Nic II's Plans to go abroad April 1917

« on: April 21, 2010, 09:51:39 AM »

I've read the comments below and agree - but i don't know how much more welcome they could have been - Xenia was naturally quite shy and didn't particularly enjoy large public occassions - however both her and her mother were treated well by the immediate Royal Family - after much debate they were welcomed with full honours at Malta on arrival in London Xenia and her sons went to Buckingham Palace whilst the Empress went to Marlborough House - Xenia and Marie F both attended Royal Weddings - with Marie joining the Royal Family on the Balcony after the York's wedding. Xenia continued to be invited and attend major Royal events into old age.

I don't think that Marie Feodorovna and her daughters were welcomed 'with open arms' as that implies enthusiasm. If you read the van der Kiste book on Xenia there was a fair amount of to-ing and fro-ing with the Foreign Office over visas for their entourage. The Foreign Office didn't allow any Grand Dukes into this country - they seem to have made an exception for Dimitri, but I don't yet know on what basis. Van der Kiste makes the point that Xenia's sons were allowed to stay here because they weren't Grand Dukes. The whole business is interestingly remeniscent of the current controversies over asylum seekers! In the end only Xenia and her family stayed here, and they largely stayed out of the public eye.

Yes, I agree that the best chance of getting the family out was in the immediate aftermath of the February Revolution. The measles made things difficult, but there probably was a window of opportunity  immediately they recovered. I am in the midst of reading the memoirs of Princess Cantacuzene (which BlessOTMA has very kindly entrusted to me). She was American (granddaughter of Ulysses S Grant) and she and her husband sent their children to America via the Trans Siberian Railway in July 1917. Getting the necessary documentation was very difficult, but the journey itself went off without a hitch. If the family had been prepared to travel incognito without a big entourage and a lot of luggage (the three young Cantacuzenes went with a tutor, a governess and a couple of maids) then maybe something similar could have been done.

Ann

92

The Windsors / Re: If the prsent Prince of Wales were to ascend the throne next week....

« on: April 21, 2010, 09:44:30 AM »

It is an interesting point but it is worth bearing in mind that Queen Consorts when widowed tended to revert to the background of life - Queen Alexandra made very few public appearances after the death of Edward VII, she spent most of her time at Sandringham or Marlborough House until her death - her trips to Denmark stopped in the early 20's - partially because of her failing health. She made her annual Queen Alexandra drives, which she didn't particularly like but that was about it.
Queen Mary in widowhood played a more visible and supporting role in the early days after the abidcation partially because of circumstances but again her public duties were limited and again she played no constitutional role and never acted as a councellor of state - though on occassions she stood in for Queen Elizabeth (particularly during the mourning period after the death of the Queen's mother the Countess of Strathmore).
Queen Elizabeth was a different case she was widowed in her early fifties, was still tremendously popular and had played a much more public role during her husband's reign than either Queen Mary or Queen Alexandra. She also acted as a councellor of state during her daughter's early reign. Her long life and long widowhood has rather emphasised the public side of her life but they are not requirements for a widowed Queen consort.
On the titles - during the reign of her husband a Queen Consort is formally simply The Queen - in widowhood both Alexandra and Mary were referred to as Queen Alexandra and Queen Mary. Queen Adelaide who was childless was simply known as Queen Adelaide until her death during Victoria's reign. The style Queen Mother was used for both Mary and Alexandra but the only person to bear the style formally - was Elizabeth Bowes Lyon - whose correct style was Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother - this was in part to distinguish her from her daughter - in the Household Elizabeth II was referred to simply as The Queen whilst the Queen Mother was referred to as Queen Elizabeth.
Should Camilla outlive Charles - then she simply stays as she is Queen Camilla - and perhaps like many other Queen Dowager's has a less visible public profile.

I'm new here, but have been a lurker for a long time and am shocked that my first post is related to Charles and Camilla given my interest in the more historical aspects of the monarchy however, here goes. It seems like logic and law are in favor of Camilla becoming Queen, however there are two issues of tradition that may be something to consider. First, the Queen Consort has a secondary role as mother of the future monarch. Since Queen Alexandria, the Queen Mother has held a prominent role within the royal family during the life of and after the death of the current monarch as mother to the new monarch. While that is more of a 20th century innovation, it plays an important role in the royal family as mother/gradmother to the heir. Camilla can never be that and then the Queen Step mum, how awkward is that? (should she outlive Charles) Secondly, there has been a Prince Consort for more than 50 years with no awkward circumstances within the institution of the royals. People are used to that arrangement, and while a Princess Consort would be a first, it would allow Charles to keep his word and the circumstance would not be that different from his parents. The sex of the consort in today's world does not have to create different results for male vs female consorts. Having said that, Camilla probably will become Queen and that's fine too. Princess Diana will always be remembered via her boys and for her being Diana, what goes on with King Charles and Queen Camilla will be irrelevant to Diana's memory.

93

Nicholas II / Re: Nic II's Plans to go abroad April 1917

« on: April 13, 2010, 04:00:27 PM »

 A few points on some of this interesting thread.

Nicholas' only real chance of escape was in the immediate aftermath of the abdication - a point made by one of his entourage during his mother's final visit before he returned to the capital.
The illness of the children prevented an immediate escape but i think Baroness Buxhoeven in her memoir suggests that escape plans were discussed with them leaving seperately (the children following i think) but were dismissed by Nicholas and Alexandra.
The British Government - had two reasons for offering asylum - 1) The personal relationship between the British and Russian Royal Families 2) A desperate desire to ensure that the provisional government stayed in the war!
George V's doubts as expressed to Stamfordham were essentially accurate - Nicholas II's reputation abroad for much of his reign was appalling, he would quite literally have been a red flag to a bull with regards the burgeoning British Left and many on the right had formed a view from the views of the British Ambassador which hadn't been that good in the last year or two of the reign.
George V's diary is not overly kind to either "Nicky" or "Alicky" but there is no animosity to either of them nor is their an absence of fear of what might happen but it doesn't imagine the future horror to come.
Russia and Britain were not natural allies - they were imperial rivals for domination in the middle and far east, Britain's support for the collapsing Ottoman Empire had been a significant thorn in Russia's side through much of the 19th century for example. Nicholas II was more than happy being a good cousin but he was also quite content to write to his sister Xenia praising the poor Boers during Boer War and likewise British sympathies in 1905 were far more with Japan than with the Russians.
The offer had been made in good faith however by the time it was withdrawn formally Kerensky had already had to give guarantees due to questions from the soviet that the former Tsar wouldn't be allowed to leave.
At the same time Alexandra was under active investigation by the Provisional Government for treason charges (they had nothing and eventually admitted as much).
Kerensky spent most of his time in exile blaming everyone but himself - the reality was that moving them into the interior ostensibly to protect them he had in fact made it far far harder for anyone to have rescue them. If he'd had any real guts or desire for a bloodless revolution he should have shuffled them across the border into Finland and blamed someone else!

Someone pointed out that the Empress and Grand Duchess Xenia were welcomed with open arms by England then why not the Tsar - two reasons - Marie Feodorovna and Xenia Alexandrovna did not arrive in Britain until 1919 - after first staying at Malta. The knowledge of the executions of the imperial family had changed public opinion to a certain extent. The war had ended and George V no longer felt as worried about his throne's security and neither MF or XA had been head of state. Even so the British left wing didn't like it and as Corynne Hall comments one paper describing MF as the "evil genius of her son's reign". It is notable though that no Grand Duke was ever welcomed to Britain even Xenia estranged husband wasn't allowed entry and the Ambassador who brought Grand Duke Dimitri out of Persia to Britain was not a very popular man with the Foreign Office for sometime afterwards.

I don't think MF or her daughters ever really bemoaned their change in financial circumstances - arguably Xenia A had had the most luck bringing more of her jewels with her than the other two (much of the Empress Dowager's jewellery had already been confiscated from the Anitchkov by the time someone went to try and get some of it for her - she being already in the Crimea by then). What does seem to have concerned them was their inability in meeting their financial commitments to the numerous charities they supported in the immediate aftermath of the revolution. In exile both MF and XA continued their charitable work although in a far less high profile way.

94

The Windsors / Re: If the prsent Prince of Wales were to ascend the throne next week....

« on: April 13, 2010, 03:12:07 PM »

I have always thought that Charles and has adivsors gave an unsavoury hostage to fortune when they announced that she was to be Duchess of Cornwall and then Princess Consort. Its was done one assumes with the tacit consent of Number 10 and Buckingham Palace but its clear that a lawyer never took a decent look at it.
It is not normal practice in the UK for a woman not to share her husband's full styles and titles (if he has any) - legally she is HRH, The Princess of Wales and on his accession she will be Queen. To turn George VI's quote about Wallis Simpson on its head "If she's good enough to be a HRH then she's good enough to be Queen".

The public feeling about Diana aside there is no real reason why she shouldn't be - if the Church of England was willing to bless the marriage then there is no reason why a future Archbishop couldn't crown her.

To my mind there are numerous of these kind of issues that have been allowed to develop without any clear lead from the Palace or Number 10. If as has been traditional it is the Monarch who is the supreme arbitor of who is or isn't a member of the Royal Family then the Queen needs to start using the appropriate methods that were good enough for her father and grandfather and for her when she made her husband a Prince of Great Britain (which her father seemed to have forgotten to do in 1947).
There is the stupidity over The Earl of Wessex's children's titles - the Queen should have issued new patents governing the use and style of the HRH either to confirm all male line grandchildren as HRH with an exception for Lady Louise and Viscount Severn or new ones limiting it to the children of the sovereign and perhaps the children of the Prince of Wales (my preferred choice) with an exception for the Duke of York's daughters.
And If William marries in her lifetime she's going to have to issue new ones as if he has a daughter she won't be HRH until Charles succeeds and likewise if he has two sons only the elder will be HRH.

Princess Consort is a ludicrous title with no precedent and will put Camilla in a bizarre situation.

95

The Imperial Family / Re: Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna

« on: April 13, 2010, 02:40:04 PM »

Not quite:
The new ruling from Nicholas II following discussions with Tatiana's father resulted in the much disputed edict that implied that unlike a Grand Duke or Grand Duchess a Prince or Princess of the blood could marry unequally - the debate has always been whether such a marriage enabled the said Prince or Princess to pass their rights to the issue of such a union.
However like his niece Irena, Tatiana was required to renounce her rights to the succession on her marriage which implied that they couldn't.

Effectively the Bagration's were not regarded as equal in in pre revolutionary Russia but Nicholas didn't believe that such a marriage should deprive Tatiana of her rank as a Princess of Russia just her rights to the succession.

I get the impression that Vladimir's view before and after his marriage was that the Romanov's being dispossessed of their throne put them technically in the same bracket as the Bagrations!

I think that if The last ruling Emperor Tsar Nicholas accepted the marriage between Princess Tatiana K. and Prince Bagration, then the marriage of GD Vladimir K. with Princess Leonida is also accepted.

96

Nicholas II / Re: why not marrying a russian?

« on: April 13, 2010, 02:15:14 PM »

He wasn't interested in Helene of Orleans - his mother was. The Empress Marie thought a match would tighten ties between Russia and the French Republic by Nicholas marrying the pretenders daughter. Nicholas notes in his diary how uninterested he was in the idea. He was committed to Alix for a long time and I think his parents eventually caved in, possibly because of Alexander III's failing health, or because it became apparent that he wouldn't change his mind.
I've never really quite understood Marie and Alexander's antipathy to the idea. Alexander's mother had been a Princess of Hesse, Marie's mother belonged to the Hesse Cassell family. They'd only met Alix on a few occassions. It may be rather that Marie like many of her family preffered to be the instigator of a match and to keep treating her grown up children as children. It may also have been the growing anti prussian element within the court largely led and encouraged by the Empress and that would I think have done for most of the brides on the putative list. Also the Montenegrin Princesses who'd married into the imperial family were not universally popular either.
The first cousin issue ruled out in your list I assume the Edinburgh girls and the Danish and Greek cousins.

Yes but I don't want to mention if he was allowed to marry, I just wanted to know, if there was any woman who he was interested in. For example I believe that he liked Helene of Orleans for example (and was of course not allowed to marry her). Was there another lady he wanted to marry?

97

The Windsors / Re: Windsor Jewels Pt 7

« on: April 04, 2010, 06:50:54 AM »

Dame Margaret Greville was arguably one of Britain's leading hostesses in the 1930's (the illegitimate daughter of a brewer) she was popular with most of the Royal Family (she had a dreadful weakness for Royalty).
The York's spent part of their honeymoon at her country home at Polesdon Lacey - she was known to be a generous hostess. She was well liked by members of the Royal Family apart from the Prince of Wales (the future Edward VIII) who found the company at her parties a bit too dull. Her great rival Emerald Cunard was more successful with the Prince of Wales and the future Duchess of Windsor.
She died during the Second World War - her country estate was left to the National Trust - however much of her jewellery was left to the then Queen, Elizabeth. She also left £10,000 to Princess Margaret.
The King may according to a couple of the Queen Mother's recent biographers have been a bit embarrassed by the bequest though some of the Greville pieces have and were worn regularly by the Queen Mother - the famous five strand Diamond necklace (which the QM appears to have had reduced to three strands at some stage) and the Empire style tiara which again the Queen Mother added height to. A pair of Diamond chandelier style earings were given by the King and Queen to Princess Elizabeth when she married. Presumably like the rest of her collection the Greville pieces passed to the Queen.

From other threads re: the emeralds (posts were originally by me):

"Here's an interesting article on the subject of the Duke & Duchess of Windsor jewel theft:

http://www.etoile.co.uk/Columns/RoyalScribe/040329.html
May I suggest to you that the lady who will be very much in the eye of society, if not the public, will be the Hon. Mrs. Ronald Greville, a very rich lady, who has always been very much with the new King & Queen (indeed their honeymoon was spent at Polesden Lacey, her country house) and who is supposed to have named the Queen as her eventual heiress.

E. A. L. BENNETT Paris, France  "

98

Nicholas II / Re: Nicholas II was Unprepared to Rule. Why?

« on: March 17, 2010, 06:23:47 AM »

Your absolutely right about that. However one point you should not include George V in that - he was not educated to rule because as King Emperor he merely reigned rather than govern unlike his more absolutist cousins.

99

Imperial Succession and the Throne / Re: Who is the rightful heir?

« on: March 08, 2010, 05:42:16 PM »

Descendants of Princess Helen of Greece Queen of Romania (listed above)

Descendants of Prince George of Greece
Princess Tatiana Radziwiłł (b. 28 August 1939)
Prince Carlo Alessandro, Duke of Castel Duino (b. 10 February 1952
Dimitri (b. 1977)
Maximilian (b. 1979)
Constanza (b. 1989)

Descendants of Prince Nicholas of Greece (listed above through his wife Grand Duchess Elena Vladimirovna)
Descendants of Prince Andrew of Greece
Prince Philip of Greece and Denmark HRH The Duke of Edinburgh (b 1921)
HRH The Prince of Wales B (The Prince Charles; b 1948),
HRH Prince William of Wales B (b 1982), son of The Prince of Wales
HRH Prince Henry of Wales B (b 1984), son of The Prince of Wales
HRH The Duke of York B (The Prince Andrew; b 1960),
HRH Princess Beatrice of York (b 1988), daughter of The Duke of York
HRH Princess Eugenie of York (b 1990), daughter of The Duke of York
HRH The Earl of Wessex (The Prince Edward; b 1964),
James, Viscount Severn (b 2007), son of The Earl of Wessex
Lady Louise Windsor  (b 2003), daughter of The Earl of Wessex
HRH The Princess Royal (The Princess Anne; b 1950), 
Peter Phillips (b 1977), son of The Princess Royal
Zara Phillips (b 1981), daughter of The Princess Royal

Descendants of Princess Margarita of Greece and Denmark *(listed above through descent from Marie Alexandrovna Duchess of Saxe Coburg Gotha.

HRH Maximilian, Margrave of Baden (b 1933),
HRH Bernhard, Hereditary Prince of Baden (b 1970), son of the Margrave of Baden
HGDH Prince Leopold Bernhard of Baden (b 2002), son of the Hereditary Prince of Baden
HGDH Prince Friedrich of Baden (b 2004), son of the Hereditary Prince of Baden
HGDH Prince Karl-Wilhelm of Baden (b 2006), son of the Hereditary Prince of Baden
HGDH Prince Leopold Max of Baden (b 1971), son of the Margrave of Baden
HGDH Prince Michael of Baden (b 1976), son of the Margrave of Baden
Marie Louise Baker (b 1969), daughter of the Margrave of Baden
 HGDH Prince Ludwig of Baden (b 1937), brother of the Margrave of Baden
HGDH Prince Berthold of Baden (b 1976), son of Prince Ludwig of Baden
HGDH Princess Sophie of Baden (b 1975), sister of Prince Berthold of Baden
HGDH Princess Aglaë of Baden (b 1981), sister of Prince Berthold of Baden
HGDH Princess Margarita of Baden (b 1932), sister of the Margrave of Baden

Descendants of Princess Sophie of Greece (those descsendants who rank higher are not mentioned)
HH Prince Karl of Hesse (b 1937),
HH Prince Christoph of Hesse (b 1969), son of Prince Karl of Hesse
HH Irina, Countess of Schönburg-Glauchau (b 1971), daughter of Prince Karl of Hesse
Count Maxiumus of Schönburg-Glauchau (b 2003), son of Irina, Countess of Schönburg-Glauchau
Count Valentin of Schönburg-Glauchau (b 2005), son of Irina, Countess of Schönburg-Glauchau
Cuntess Maria-Laetitia of Schönburg-Glauchau (b 2001), daughter of Irina, Countess of Schönburg-Glauchau
HH Prince Rainer of Hesse (b 1939), brother of Prince Karl of Hesse
HH Princess Christina of Hesse (b 1933), sister of Prince Karl of Hesse
 HH Princess Dorothea of Windisch-Grätz (b 1934), sister of Prince Karl of Hesse
Marina Jakabffy (b 1960), daughter of Princess Dorothea of Windisch-Grätz
HH Princess Clarissa of Hesse (b 1944), sister of Princess Dorothea of Windisch-Grätz
HH Prince Georg Paul of Hanover (b 1949),
HRH Princess Vera, Mrs. Manuel Dmoch (b 1976), daughter of Prince Georg Paul of Hanover
HRH Princess Nora, Mrs. Christian Falk (b 1979), daughter of Prince Georg Paul of Hanover
HRH Princess Friederike, Mrs. Jerry Cyr (b 1954), sister of Prince Georg Paul of Hanover
HRH Princess Saskia, Mrs. Edward Hooper (b 1970),
 
Descendants of Princess Irene of Greece Duchess of Aosta

Prince Amedeo of Savoy, Duke of Aosta, (b1943)
Princess Bianca of Savoy (b 1966)
Prince Aimone Duke of Apulia (b.1967)
Prince Umberto of Savoy (b 2009)
Princess Mafalda of Savoy (b 1969)

Descendants of Princess Alexandra of Greece (listed above not eligible)

Descendants of Princess Marie of Greece (not eligible)

After that your left with the desendants in order of the following:
Descendants of Grand Duchess Vera Constantinovna
Descendants of Princess Marina Petrovna (not eligible)
Descendans of Princess Nadejda Petrovna (not eligible)
Descendants of Princess Irina Alexandrovna (not eligible)
Descendants of Grand Duchess Anastasia Mikhailovna
Descendants of Garand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna Duchess of Leuchtenburg
Descendants of Grand Duchess Catherine Mikhailovna of Russia
Descendants of Grand Duchess Elena Pavlovna of Russia
Descendants of Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna of Russia
Descendants of Grand Duchess Catherine Pavlovna of Russia
Descendants of Grand Duchess Anna Pavlovna of Russia

100

Imperial Succession and the Throne / Re: Who is the rightful heir?

« on: March 08, 2010, 05:41:58 PM »

Descendants of Princess Alexandra of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha

HSH The Prince of Hohenlohe-Langenburg (Philip, b 1970), grandson of Gottfried, Prince of Hohenlohe-Langenburg
HSH The Hereditary Prince of Hohenlohe-Langenburg (Max Leopold, b 2005), son of the Prince of Hohenlohe-Langenburg
HSH Prince Gustav of Hohenlohe-Langenburg (b 2007), son of the Prince of Hohenlohe-Langenburg
HSH Princess Cecile of Hohenlohe-Langenburg, Countess Cyril de Commarque (b 1967), sister of the Prince of Hohenlohe-Langenburg
Princess Xenia of Hohenlohe-Langenburg (b 1972), sister of the Prince of Hohenlohe-Langenburg
HSH Prince Andreas of Hohenlohe-Langenburg (b 1938), son of Gottfried, Prince of Hohenlohe-Langenburg
HSH Princess Katharina of Waldeck and Pyrmont (b 1972), daughter of Prince Andreas of Hohenlohe-Langenburg
HSH Princess Laetitia of Waldeck and Pyrmont (b 2003), daughter of Princess Katharina of Waldeck and Pyrmont
HSH Princess Alexia of Waldeck and Pyrmont (b 2006), daughter of Princess Katharina of Waldeck und Pyrmont
HSH Princess Tatiana-Louise of Hohenlohe-Langenburg (b 1975), daughter of Prince Andreas of Hohenlohe-Langenburg
HSH Prince Ludwig of Hohenlohe-Langenburg (b 1976), nephew of Prince Andreas of Hohenlohe-Langenburg
HH The Prince of Schleswig-Holstein (Christoph, b 1949), son of Peter, Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg
HH The Hereditary Prince of Schleswig-Holstein (Friedrich Ferdinand, b 1985), son of the Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg
HH Prince Constantin of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg (b 1986), son of the Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg
HH Prince Leopold of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg (b 1991), son of the Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg
HH Princess Sophie of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg (b 1983), daughter of the Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg
HH Prince Alexander of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg (b 1953), brother of the Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg
HH Prince Julian of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg (b 1997), son of Prince Alexander of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg
HH Princess Helena of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg (b 1995), daughter of Prince Alexander of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg
Baroness Marita von Plotho (b 1948), sister of the Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg
Baron Christoph von Plotho (b 1976), son of Baroness Marita von Plotho
Baroness Irina von Plotho (b 1978), daughter of Baroness Marita von Plotho
HH Princess Ingeborg of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg (b 1956), sister of the Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg

Descendants of Princess Beatrice of Edinburgh

Don Alfonso d'Orléans y Ferrara Pignatelli, Duke of Galliera (b 1968), grandson of Don Alvaro d'Orléans, 4th Duke of Galliera
Don Alonso d'Orléans y Goeders (b 1994), son of the Duke of Galliera
Don Alvaro d'Orléans y Ferrara Pignatelli (b 1969), brother of the Duke of Galliera
Don Alvaro d'Orléans y Parodi Delfino (b 1947), uncle of the Duke of Galliera
Don Andrea d'Orléans (b 1976), son of Don Alvaro d'Orléans
Don Alois d'Orléans (b 1979), son of Don Alvaro d'Orléans
Doña Maria del Pilar d'Orléans (b 1975), daughter of Don Alvaro d'Orléans
Doña Gerarda d'Orléans y Parodi Delfino (b 1939), sister of Don Alvaro d'Orléans y Parodi Delfino
Doña Beatriz d'Orléans y Parodi Delfino (b 1943), sister of Don Alvaro d'Orléans y Parodi Delfino

Descendants of Grand Duchess Olga Constantinovna Queen of Greece
HRH The Crown Prince of Yugoslavia (b 1945), son of Alexandra of Greece Queen of Yugoslavia
HRH The Hereditary Prince of Yugoslavia (b 1980), son of Crown Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia
HRH Prince Philip of Yugoslavia (b 1982), son of Crown Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia
HRH Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia (b 1982), son of Crown Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia
HM King Constantine of Greece
HRH The Crown Prince of Greece (b 1967),
HRH Prince Constantine Alexios of Greece and Denmark (b 1998), son of Crown Prince Pavlos of Greece
HRH Prince Achileas-Andreas of Greece and Denmark (b 2000), son of Crown Prince Pavlos of Greece
HRH Prince Odysseas-Kimon of Greece and Denmark (b 2004), son of Crown Prince Pavlos of Greece
HRH Prince Aristide Stavros of Greece and Denmark (b 2008), son of Crown Prince Pavlos of Greece
HRH Princess Maria-Olympia of Greece and Denmark (b 1996), daughter of Crown Prince Pavlos of Greece
HRH Prince Nikolaos of Greece and Denmark (b 1969), son of King Constantine of Greece
HRH Prince Philippos of Greece and Denmark (b 1986), son of King Constantine of Greece
Princess Alexia of Greece and Denmark (b 1965), daughter of King Constantine of Greece
HRH Princess Theodora of Greece and Denmark (b 1983), daughter of King Constantine of Greece
HM Queen Sophia of Spain (b1938)
HRH The Prince of Asturias (Felipe, b 1968), son of the Queen of Spain
HRH Infanta Leonor of Spain (b 2005), daughter of the Prince of Asturias
HRH Infanta Sofia of Spain (b 2007), daughter of the Prince of Asturias
HRH The Duchess of Lugo (Elena, b 1963), daughter of the Queen of Spain
HE Don Felipe Juan Froilán de Marichalar y de Borbón (b 1998), son of Infanta Elena of Spain
HE Doña Victoria Federica de Marichalar y de Borbón (b 2000), daughter of Infanta Elena of Spain
HRH The Duchess of Palma de Mallorca (Cristina, b 1965), daughter of the Queen of Spain
HE Don Juan Valentín Urdangarín y de Borbón (b 1999), son of Infanta Cristina of Spain
HE Don Pablo Nicolás Urdangarín y de Borbón (b 2000), son of Infanta Cristina of Spain
HE Don Miguel Urdangarín y de Borbón (b 2002), son of Infanta Cristina of Spain
HE Doña Irene Urdangarín y de Borbón (b 2005), daughter of Infanta Cristina of Spain
HRH Princess Irene of Greece and Denmark (b 1942), sister of King Constantine of Greece

101

Imperial Succession and the Throne / Re: Who is the rightful heir?

« on: March 08, 2010, 05:41:04 PM »

Descendants of Grand Duchess Xenia Alexandrovna (none of her descendants are married equally under a very strict reading of the Fundamental laws however here they are.
Prince Andrew Andreievich Romanov
Prince Alexis Romanov
Prince Peter Romanov
Prince Andrew Romanov
Princess Natasha Kathleen Romanov
Princess Olga, Mrs Mathew
Princess Irene, Mrs Soulas
Penelope, Princess Galitzine
Prince Rostislav Romanov
Prince Nikita Romanov
Princess Stephena, Mrs Boggs
Prince Nicholas Christopher Romanov
Princess Karlyn Romanov
Princess Heather, Mrs Munao
Princess Marina Vasilievna, Mrs Beadleston

Descendants of Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna (not eligible)

Descendants of Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna (daughter of Grand Duke Paul - not eligible as not regarded as part of the Swedish Royal Family due her son's morganatic marriage)

Descendants of Grand Duchess Marie Alexandrovna of Russia Duchess of Saxe Coburg Gotha.

Descendants of Marie of Edinburgh

King Michael of Roumania
HRH Princess Margarita of Romania (b 1949), daughter of King Michael of Romania
HRH Princess Elena of Romania (b 1950), daughter of King Michael of Romania
Nicholas de Roumanie Medforth-Mills (b 1985), son of Princess Elena of Romania
Karina de Roumanie Medforth-Mills (b 1989), daughter of Princess Elena of Romania
HRH Princess Irina of Romania (b 1953), daughter of King Michael of Romania
Michael de Roumanie Kreuger (b 1985), son of Princess Irina of Romania
HRH Princess Sofia of Romania (b 1957), daughter of King Michael of Romania
Princess Maria of Romania R (b 1964), daughter of King Michael of Romania
HRH The Crown Prince of Yugoslavia (b 1945), grandson of Princess Maria of Romania through her son King Peter II of Yugoslavia
HRH The Hereditary Prince of Yugoslavia R (b 1980), son of Crown Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia
HRH Prince Philip of Yugoslavia (b 1982), son of Crown Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia
HRH Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia (b 1982), son of Crown Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia
HRH Prince Nikolas of Yugoslavia (b 1958), grandson of Princess Maria of Romania through her son Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
HRH Princess Maria of Yugoslavia (b 1993), daughter of Prince Nikolas of Yugoslavia
HRH Prince George of Yugoslavia (b 1984), brother of Prince Nikolas of Yugoslavia
HRH Prince Michael of Yugoslavia (b 1985), brother of Prince Nikolas of Yugoslavia
HRH Princess Katarina of Yugoslavia (b 1959), sister of Prince Nikolas of Yugoslavia
HRH Prince Karl Wladimir of Yugoslavia (b 1964), grandson of Princess Maria of Romania through her son Prince Andrej of Yugoslavia
HRH Prince Dimitri of Yugoslavia (b 1965), brother of Prince Karl Wladimir of Yugoslavia
Count Christopher von Habsburg-Lothringen (b 1957), grandson of Princess Ileana of Romania through her son Archduke Stefan of Austria
Count Stefan von Habsburg-Lothringen (b 1990), son of Count Christopher von Habsburg-Lothringen
Countess Saygan von Habsburg-Lothringen (b 1987), daughter of Count Christopher von Habsburg-Lothringen
Countess Maria Antonia von Habsburg-Lothringen (b 1997), daughter of Count Christopher von Habsburg-Lothringen
 Count Peter von Habsburg-Lothringen (b 1959), brother of Count Christopher von Habsburg-Lothringen
Count Anton von Habsburg-Lothringen R XP (b 1964), brother of Count Christopher von Habsburg-Lothringen
Ileana Snyder (b 1958), sister of Count Christopher von Habsburg-Lothringen
Constanza Bain R XP (b 1960), sister of Count Christopher von Habsburg-Lothringen
HI&RH Archduke Dominic of Austria (b 1937), son of Princess Ileana of Romania
Count Sandor von Habsburg-Lothringen (b 1965), son of Archduke Dominic of Austria
Count Constantin von Habsburg-Lothringen (b 2000), son of Count Sandor von Habsburg-Lothringen
Count Gregor von Habsburg-Lothringen (b 1968), son of Archduke Dominic of Austria
Countess Alexandra of Baillou (b 1933), sister of Archduke Dominic of Austria
Baroness Maria Magdalena von Holzhausen (b 1939), sister of Archduke Dominic of Austria
Baron Johann von Holzhausen (b 1960), son of Baroness Maria Magdalena von Holzhausen
Baron Georg von Holzhausen (b 1962), son of Baroness Maria Magdalena von Holzhausen
Baron Alexander von Holzhausen (b 1994), son of Baron Georg von Holzhausen
Baron Tassilo von Holzhausen (b 1997), son of Baron Georg von Holzhausen
Baron Clemens von Holzhausen (b 2003), son of Baron Georg von Holzhausen

Descendants of Princess Victoria Melita of Edinburgh listed above

102

Imperial Succession and the Throne / Re: Who is the rightful heir?

« on: March 08, 2010, 05:39:21 PM »

Descendants of Grand Duchess Elena Vladimirovna of Russia

Descendants of Princess Olga of Greece and Denmark

Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia (b. 1924), son of Princess Olga of Greece and Denmark
Prince Dimitri of Yugoslavia (b. 1958), son of Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia
Prince Michael of Yugoslavia (b 1958), son of Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia
Prince Sergius of Yugoslavia (b 1963), son of Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia
Prince Dushan of Yugoslavia (b 1977), son of Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia
Princess Helene of Yugoslavia (b 1963), daughter of Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia
Princess Elizabeth of Yugoslavia (b 1936), daughter of Princess Olga of Greece and Denmark

Descendants of Princess Elizabeth of Greece and Denmark
Hans Veit, Count of Toerring-Jettenbach (*1935), m.1964 Princess Henriette of Hohenlohe-Bartenstein (*1938)
Countess Clarissa of Toerring-Jettenbach (*1965), m.1999 Prince Tassilo of Ratibor and Corvey (*1965)
.Princess Charlotte of Ratibor and Corvey (*2000)
Prince Gregor of Ratibor and Corvey (*2002)
Prince Vitus of Ratibor and Corvey (*2004)
Hereditary Count Ignatius of Toerring-Jettenbach (*1966), m.2004 Robinia Mentasti-Granelli (*1967)
Countess Floriana of Toerring-Jettenbach (*2005)
Countess Georgiana of Toerring-Jettenbach (*2006)
Countess Elisabeth of Toerring-Jettenbach (*2008)
Count Carl Theodor of Toerring-Jettenbach (*1969)
Countess Helene of Toerring-Jettenbach (*1937) m.1956 Archduke Ferdinand of Austria (1918-2004)
Archduchess Elisabeth of Austria (1957-1983), m.1982 James Litchfield (*1956)
Archduchess Sophie of Austria (*1959), m.1990 Mariano Hugo, Prince of Windisch-Graetz (*1955)
Prince Maximilian of Windisch-Graetz (*1990)
Prince Alexis of Windisch-Graetz (*1991)
Princess Larissa of Windisch-Graetz (*1996)
Archduke Maximilian of Austria (*1961), m.2005 Maya al-Askari (*1977)
Archduke Nicholas of Austria (*2005)

Descendants of Princess Marina of Greece and Denmark
HRH The Duke of Kent (Prince Edward; b 1935), son of Prince George, Duke of Kent
George Windsor, Earl of St Andrews (George Windsor, b 1962), son of the Duke of Kent
Edward Windsor, Lord Downpatrick (Edward Windsor, b 1988), son of George Windsor, Earl of St Andrews
Lady Marina-Charlotte Windsor (b 1992), daughter of George Windsor, Earl of St Andrews
Lady Amelia Windsor (b 1995), daughter of George Windsor, Earl of St. Andrews
Lord Nicholas Windsor (b 1970), son of the Duke of Kent
Albert Windsor (b 2007), son of Lord Nicholas Windsor
Leopold Windsor (b 2009), son of Lord Nicholas Windsor
Lady Helen Taylor (b 1964), daughter of the Duke of Kent
HRH Prince Michael of Kent (b 1942), brother of the Duke of Kent
Lord Frederick Windsor B (b 1979), son of Prince Michael of Kent
Lady Gabriella Windsor (b 1981), daughter of Prince Michael of Kent
HRH Princess Alexandra, The Honourable Lady Ogilvy (b 1936), sister of the Duke of Kent

103

Imperial Succession and the Throne / Re: Who is the rightful heir?

« on: March 08, 2010, 05:38:31 PM »

Reference some of this discussion:

The demand is for a spouse of a reigning family (whether their ancestry would be morganatic is irrelevant if they are regarded as of Royal birth in their own country)
For example the montenegrin princesses who married into the Russian Imperial house were regarded as being equal even though their family had only recently become reigning.
Incidentally much has been made of the Orthodox mother (that rule only applied to the wife of the heir) and whether or not your mother was or wasn't Orthodox didn't affect your membership of the dynasty.

So in strict order - the female dynastic descendants based on a Russian Succession up to Grand Duke Kyril (therefore his daugthers and sisters before the daughters of his uncle the Emperor Alexander III)

this ignore religion and divorces however i have excluded those in line who would not be regarded as members of a reigning or former reigning family.

Grand Duchess Marie Kyrillovna d 1951

Prince Karl Emich of Leiningen
HSH Princess Cécilia of Leiningen (b 1988), daughter of Prince Karl Emich of Leiningen
Theresa Prinzessin zu Leiningen (b 1992), daughter of Prince Karl Emich of Leiningen
HSH The Prince of Leiningen (Andreas, b 1955), brother of Prince Karl Emich of Leiningen
HSH The Hereditary Prince of Leiningen (Ferdinand, b 1982), son of Prince Andreas of Leiningen
HSH Prince Hermann of Leiningen (b 1987), son of Prince Andreas of Leiningen
HSH Princess Olga of Leiningen (b 1984), daughter of Prince Andreas of Leiningen
HSH Princess Melita of Leiningen (b 1951), sister of Prince Karl Emich of Leiningen
HSH Princess Stephanie of Leiningen (b 1958), sister of Prince Karl Emich of Leiningen
HSH Prince Boris of Leiningen (b 1960), first-cousin of Prince Andreas of Leiningen
HSH Prince Nicholas of Leiningen (b 1991), son of Prince Boris of Leiningen
HSH Prince Karl Heinrich of Leiningen (b 2001), son of Prince Boris of Leiningen
HSH Princess Juliana of Leiningen (b 2003), daughter of Prince Boris of Leiningen
HSH Prince Hermann Friedrich of Leiningen (b 1963), brother of Prince Boris of Leiningen
HSH Princess Tatiana of Leiningen (b 1989), daughter of Prince Hermann of Leiningen
HSH Princess Nadia of Leiningen (b 1991), daughter of Prince Hermann of Leiningen
HSH Princess Alexandra of Leiningen (b 1997), daughter of Prince Hermann of Leiningen
HSH Karl Friedrich, Hereditary Prince of Hohenzollern (b 1952), first cousin of Prince Andreas of Leiningen
HSH Prince Alexander of Hohenzollern (b 1987), son of the Hereditary Prince of Hohenzollern
HSH Princess Philippa of Hohenzollern (b 1988), daughter of the Hereditary Prince of Hohenzollern
HSH Princess Flaminia of Hohenzollern (b 1992), daughter of the Hereditary Prince of Hohenzollern
HSH Princess Antonia of Hohenzollern (b 1995), daughter of the Hereditary Prince of Hohenzollern
HSH Prince Albrecht of Hohenzollern (b 1954), brother of the Hereditary Prince of Hohenzollern
HSH Princess Josephine of Hohenzollern (b 2002), daughter of Prince Albrecht of Hohenzollern
HRH Princess Eugenia of Hohenzollern (b 2005), daughter of Prince Albrecht of Hohenzollern
HSH Prince Ferdinand of Hohenzollern (b 1960), brother of the Hereditary Prince of Hohenzollern
HSH Prince Aloys of Hohenzollern (b 1999), son of Prince Ferdinand of Hohenzollern
HSH Prince Fidelis of Hohenzollern (b 2001), son of Prince Ferdinand of Hohenzollern
HSH Princess Victoria of Hohenzollern (b 2004), daughter of Prince Ferdinand of Hohenzollern

Descendants of Grand Duchess Kira Kirilovna of Russia

HRH Prince Friedrich Wilhelm of Prussia (b 1939), son of Grand Duchess Kira Kirillovna of Russia
HRH Prince Michael of Prussia (b 1940), brother of Prince Friedrich Wilhelm of Prussia
HI&RH The Prince of Prussia (Georg Friedrich, b 1976), nephew of Prince Friedrich Wilhelm of Prussia
HRH Princess Cornelie-Cecile of Prussia (b 1978), sister of Prince Georg Friedrich of Prussia
HRH Prince Christian-Sigismund of Prussia (b 1946), brother of Prince Friedrich Wilhelm of Prussia
HRH Prince Christian Ludwig of Prussia (b 1986), son of Prince Christian Sigismund of Prussia
HRH Princess Irina of Prussia (b 1988), daughter of Prince Christian Sigismund of Prussia
HRH Princess Marie Cécile of Prussia (b 1942), sister of Prince Friedrich Wilhelm of Prussia
HH Duke Paul Wladimir of Oldenburg (b 1969), son of Princess Marie Cécile of Prussia
HH Duke Kirill of Oldenburg (b 2002), son of Duke Paul Wladimir of Oldenburg
HH Duke Carlos of Oldenburg (b 2004), son of Duke Paul Wladimir of Oldenburg
HH Duke Paul of Oldenburg (b 2005), son of Duke Paul Wladimir of Oldenburg
HH Duchess Maria Assunta of Oldenburg (b 2007), daughter of Duke Paul Wladimir of Oldenburg
HH Duchess Rixa of Oldenburg (b 1970), daughter of Princess Marie Cécile of Prussia

104

The Windsors / Re: King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson (Duke and Duchess of Windsor)

« on: February 11, 2010, 04:41:46 PM »

The reference in the letter of Queen Mary was to the sacrifices made in the First World War.
 During the Second World War the King was insistant over his mother's objections that she should go somewhere safe (she wanted to stay in London as she had no great affection for the country) - Badminton was the choice because it was the home of her niece (who had married the Duke of Beaufort). The annuity she received was her civil list payment which she received as Queen Dowager. She made numerous local engagements throughout the war and often stopped her car to pick up passing servicemen and women. There wasn't much more a woman approaching her 80's could do really.

Eleanor Roosevelt was impressed by the pretty unpleasant conditions at Buckingham Palace on her visits - and several other people in society thought the Royal Family "Very ration concious".

The grudge between them all has long been over exaggerated - David in exile was a man who had been deferred to and listened to throughout his entire adult life and he never really understood just why his family felt they couldn't accept Wallis. Their attraction to unsuitable characters, the fact that he lied to King George VI about his financial assets, the fact that he attempted to upstage his brother on several occassions before the outbreak of war just made things worse and hardened attitudes in London (and it wasn't just the Royal Family even former allies like Churchill found the Duke and his constant demands an irritant). I think that the general view of the hatred directed towards them which they encouraged has very little basis in fact...their useless post war life was largely their own fault - Edward wanted to move to the States in the 40's (he had no great affinity for France or the French) however he was desperate to be attached to the British Embassy so as to avoid having to pay Tax. The Government view was that he shouldn't have any official position so he stayed in France!

Ella you talk of sacrifice in the event of world war...or least use it in a comparison via quote reference to WWI!


May I just clarify whether or not it is a fact that Eleanor Rooselvelt or a member of her entourage intimated that QETQM flouted the rationing restrictions during WWII? Also, Queen Mary moved from London, literally requisitioned Badminton and spent the war overseeing the culling of ivy all on an annuity of 60 thousand pounds + a year! I do find the ethos of sacrifice in such cases rather difficult to swallow!


I do think that the freezing out of the Windsors was taken to extreme! It was almost personal! I thought the Monarchy strived to be about the People!

105

Alexandra Feodorovna / Re: Alexandra's Personality Traits - Good & Bad

« on: January 21, 2010, 03:52:05 PM »

Janet I was perhaps being too oversimplistic for space (I'd already waffled on quite a bit). I certainly wasn't intending to imply that MF was everyone's darling at all.

I think though it is important to appreciate a few facts:
The power and prestige of the Russian Aristocracy (particularly the minor country nobility) had been severely damaged by two things - growing industrialisation and the reforms of the 19th Century. They on the whole and unlike many of their western contemporaries had failed to adapt to changing circumstances. However to say they no longer led society is not strictly true in terms of culture, fashion and art they certainly did still lead and politically they still made up the vast majority of the Empire's administrators and after 1905 they still wielded considerable influence (whatever side they came down on) within the new Duma. Alienating many of them was certainly not an ideal way to proceed HOWEVER there was certainly a considerable section of the higher aristocracy who beleived the game was up and were looking after number one. It's arguable whether a different Consort would have made any difference.

I tend to prescribe to the view that the damage was done before Nicholas succeeded - although a different man with a different wife might have been able to salvage something. Depending on which historian is flavour of the month a general view of RUssia prior to First World War and after the failed revolution of 1905 was a state improving certainly in terms of industrial production and in terms of gaining some kind of political stability - many exiled leftists for example bemoaning the situation believing falsely that the time had come and gone.
Of course that's a false picture because the left within Russia hadn't given up at all and were still subject to the rigours and restrictions of life in what was still essentially an autocratic state.
But Russia wasn't like other countries she had a limited but growing intelligentsia and small middle class and a vast peasant class that really didn't care a great deal about anything beyomd the immediate need to survive (and for most of them life changed very little between Nicholas, Lvov, Kerensky and Lenin). The vast majority of the revolutionary movement was based within Russia's growing industrial sector and was lead by people many of whom would due to their professions have held minor noble status. The Russian Revolution was no peasant uprising.

Your correct Alex alienated the aristocracy and did little to attract the affection and loyalty of the great mass of the Russian population - she believed (as did Nicholas) in the great Russian myth of the distant Tsar as a benevolent god like landowner who cared but was so remote as to be useless that might still have held some worth amongst some sections of the population but had no meaning to those peasants forced from the land to work in the new factories in Moscow, Petrograd or Kiev where conditions were truly appalling even by the standards of the time.

The reason the Russian Monarchy collapsed in on itself was that no-one including many of the Romanovs cared that much for it anymore.

As to Marie Feodorovna - certainly she was subject to the same threats as many fo the family from revolutionaries again she is difficult to read because she wasn't a very clever woman although not as stupid as her sister (and i don't mean that unkindly) - she tended to be more pro reform when in the company of her relations and when in Denmark and far less pragmatic when back in Russia. Nicholas certainly did listen to her - but on the whole her support of certain ministers in the first few years was fairly sound (men such as Witte for example) and your right even the British left wing described her as the "evil genius" of Nicholas II's reign when she arrived in Britain in exile after the revolution. However her influence in the later years had faded considerably to the point where some in the family believed any intervention she made would end badly. She was on the whole reasonable (described as eminently sensible by one recent historian) tended to listen to both sides even when she personally vehemently disagreed, more importantly she had a far more practical and pragmatic approach, she had no obscure mystical view of religion but within her own family was a stickler for the correct form and behaviour. Her biggest failing - the appalling education she and her husband gave all their children which probably permanently destroyed any independent thought or consideration of veering from tradition.

Had Russia had a different system of Government it might not have caused her problems but unfortunately she alienated the people who were traditionally the Crown's most loyal supporters and a general air of dislike is soon diseminated to a wider audience.

I am not sure I agree with this bit. Maria Feodorovna may have been popular amongst this class of people, but it did not stop her being hated in the country at large - and that's no exaggeration; she required particular protection from assassination attempts because for the first ten years at least she was perceived as behind most of Nicholas's policies. The days when the aristocracy were "opinion leaders" were past. Nicholas and Alexandra's error was not in alienating some of these people but in failing to make strong bonds with anyone else, despite their efforts with the press and the church. The aristocracy did not lead the revolution, nor could they prevent it, and their support for the crown was greatly compromised firstly by the Great Reforms and then by the agricultural/industrial policies which Alexander III initiated and pursued in the eras of Vyshnegradsky and Witte. Stolypin's land reforms compromised things further, and it takes too narrow a view of things, in my opinion, to lay this at Alexandra's door for her failure to hold parties...some years!
IMHO, Alexandra's unpopularity with these people was a result of the monarchy's decline in support among the aristocracy, not the reason for it.
Note that the Dowager Empress opposed the land reforms, of course - and so many on this forum find her admirable!!!!!!