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Messages - Clemence

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16
Imperial Russian History / Re: Signs of war in the Pre WW1 period
« on: January 21, 2017, 02:07:57 AM »
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OK, let's remember some facts to keep the discussion in focus.

1. The Battle of Kosovo (field) took place in 1389. That is, in 1914 it had happened 525 years ago.
The Battle of El Alamo ended on 6 March 1836. That is, "only" 181 years ago next March. Should Mexicans who live in Texas have to stay indoors on that anniversary?

It seems there are many people who do not realise how little things change in centuries in some parts of the world. The Balkans will always consider Turks as oppressors no matter the date. Glad to know there are countries that have the best relations with their neighbours, but these countries are not in the Balkans.

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2. In the Battle of Kosovo Serbs fought against the Turks. Franz Ferdinand was not a Turk.

No, he was not an Ottoman. The Empire he rappresented was in alliance with the Ottoman Empire though. May I remind you that the Austrians and the Ottomans were great allies and there have been many people that have been arrested in Austrian territories and given in custody to the Ottomans who brutally murdered them? That were the terms of friendship between civilized Empires back then and some things will never be forgotten, not by the oppressed.

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4. Bosnia had come under Austro-Hungarian rule as the result of a treaty, not by conquest.

So the annexetion and crisis of 1908 never took place?



17
Imperial Russian History / Re: Signs of war in the Pre WW1 period
« on: January 18, 2017, 01:59:21 PM »
NicolasG I hope you will not mind I quote your posts, you made me go and read more on that historic period I find the most interesting. Obviously being Greek myself I find it hard to see things from the perspective of people from outside of the Balkans, and I believe it's hard for anyone outside the Balkans realise how we in this region feel about history of our countries.

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I object to the use of "excuse" to describe the reaction of Austria to the assassination of Franz Ferdinand and his wife. A team of murderers is trained by the Serbian army, provided with weapons by the Serbian army, smuggled across the border by Serbian border guards and hidden in safe houses following the plan of senior Serbian officers, including the head of the Serbian Intelligence service, Dragutin Dmitrijevich, "Apis". The Serbian government knows about it, but fails to do anything to avert it or to give a clear warning to the Austrian authorities.

I also would have used the word ''excuse'' only to imply that Austria had already decided they wanted war and the only thing they were thinking of was how to declare one. As to inform the Austrian authorities, I believe I have read something about diplomats who later said they had, but that was not a good moment for diplomacy, of either side.

''Immediately following the assassinations, the Serbian ambassador to France, Milenko Vesnić, and the Serbian ambassador to Russia, Spalaiković, put out statements claiming that Serbia had warned Austria-Hungary of the impending assassination. Serbia soon thereafter denied making warnings and denied knowledge of the plot. Prime Minister Nikola Pašić himself made these denials to Az Est on 7 July 1914, and to the Paris Edition of the New York Herald on 20 July 1914. During the war, the former Serbian Military Attaché to Vienna, Colonel Lesanin, claimed that Prime Minister Pašić had ordered the Serbian ambassador to Vienna, Jovanović, to warn Austria-Hungary of the plot, but Jovanović carried out his instructions poorly''

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_Crisis)

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Regarding St. Vitus' day, Franz Ferdinand travelled to Bosnia to inspect military exercises that routinely took place in summer. It was not for the Austrian army to coordinate its calendar with Serbian mythology. The predatory intentions of Austria towards Slav countries in the Balkans in Serbian or Russian history books are just a projection of Serbian intentions, their Greater Serbia project. Austria did NOT want to annex Serbia and the Hungarians, who had a say on that matter, even less so. Franz Ferdinand is quoted as saying that annexing Serbia would only add "one more pile of thieves, murderers and rascals, plus a few plum trees" to the Empire.

Serbia was a bomb ticking across the border. The Austrians did not want to take it home. They wanted it deactivated. They would have been glad to see the Bulgarians (other Slavs) or Albania taking part of the land Serbia had acquired after the Balkan wars of 1912-13 and was busy getting ethnic-cleansed. 

I wonder why were Bosnian territories more appealing to Austria, since they annexed them and by so acting they came closer to the Balkans and to Serbia. There must have been good reasons for expanding south taking risks.

''At the Congress of Berlin in 1878, the Austro-Hungarian Foreign Minister Gyula Andrássy obtained the occupation and administration of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and he also obtained the right to station garrisons in the Sanjak of Novi Pazar, which remained under Ottoman administration. The Sanjak preserved the separation of Serbia and Montenegro, and the Austro-Hungarian garrisons there would open the way for a dash to Salonika that "would bring the western half of the Balkans under permanent Austrian influence." "High [Austro-Hungarian] military authorities desired [an...] immediate major expedition with Salonika as its objective."

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_and_Herzegovina)

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Austria sent an ultimatum with several points, some of which would have allowed the presence of Austrian troops in Serbia. It was not different to what NATO requested in 1999 to avoid a repetition of the Bosnian ethnic cleansing in Kosovo.

This reminds us that all empires think they can dictate and decide on other countries but they rarely resolve the problems they use as an excuse to invade.

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Of course, the NATO ultimatum, as the Austrian one, supposed a limitation of Serbian national sovereignity, but that is the consequence of being a rogue state, as Serbia was, in 1999 and in 1914.

So you made me search the definition of a rogue state:

As early as July 1985, President Reagan had asserted that "we are not going to tolerate … attacks from outlaw states by the strangest collection of misfits, loony tunes, and squalid criminals since the advent of the Third Reich," but it fell to the Clinton administration to elaborate this concept. In the 1994 issue of Foreign Affairs, National Security Advisor Anthony Lake claimed "the reality of recalcitrant and outlaw states that not only choose to remain outside the family [of democratic nations] but also assault its basic values. Lake labeled five regimes as "rogue states": North Korea, Cuba, Iraq, Iran and Libya. In theory, at least, to be classified as a rogue, a state had to commit four transgressions: pursue weapons of mass destruction, support terrorism, severely abuse its own citizens, and stridently criticize the United States. While four of the listed rogue states met all these transgressions, Cuba, though still known for severely abusing its citizens and its strident criticism of the United States, no longer met all the transgressions required for a rogue state and was put on the list solely because of the political influence of the American Cuban community and specifically that of the Cuban American National Foundation. Syria and Pakistan, two nations which were hardly regarded by the United States as paragons of rectitude, avoided being added to the list because the United States hoped that Damascus could play a constructive role in the Arab-Israeli peace process, and because Washington had long maintained close relations with Islamabad—a vestige of the Cold War''

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_state)

Is there a similar definition of failed empires? Because I think at that point we had on one hand the Balkans that were full of countries that were new and with inexperienced adminitrations and on the other empires so old that were very close to their ends, even if they prefered to ignore the signs. In the July crisis I personally would expect more from Austria not only because they were the stronger but mainly because they should be the wiser and more experienced. Sadly they decided for war and we all know how it ended.


19
Only today I saw this in wiki:

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Latest evidence[edit]
On 31 July 2015 the Austrian National Library issued copies of Vetsera's letters of farewell to her mother and other family members. These letters, previously believed lost or destroyed, were found in a safe deposit box in an Austrian bank, where they had been deposited in 1926. The letters - written in Mayerling shortly before the deaths - state clearly and unambiguously that Vetsera was preparing to commit suicide alongside Rudolf, out of "love". They will be made available to scholars and are likely to be exhibited in public in 2016.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayerling_incident

Sorry if it has already been discussed in the forum

20
Imperial Russian History / Re: Signs of war in the Pre WW1 period
« on: January 04, 2017, 02:18:07 PM »
Found this very interesting:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_crisis

There's a whole episode of the Fall of Eagles series on this: "Dress Rehearsal", I was just curious if anyone ever discussed that in this forum in the past.

22
http://www.stokokkino.gr/article/1000000000041436/THessaloniki-En-eti-2016-topotheteitai-agalma-tis-Bas-Olgas

A statue of Queen Olga of Greece will be positioned in Thessalonika, as a present of a Russian Military - History Union. This in honour of the Russian - Greek frienship.

23
Thank you, the fact remains that the Soviets never searched or found it before the Nazis.

24
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In 1941 the German Nazi Army and their Spanish allies occupied the palace. During their stay they made a sensational discovery. Where the arcade meets the bedroom wall they found a secret safe concealed beneath the fabric. During the 25 years the Palace had been a museum no one had found this secret hiding place. This is amazing considering the repeated numerous searches in the palace for Romanov treasures conducted by the Soviet Government over the years. Everyday the palace was open, thousands of people walked just a few feet from the secret safe, yet no one suspected its existence. Yet, the invading German army seemed to have known it was there. When the Soviet Army re-took the Palace they found the strong box in the wall, but it had been emptied. What did the Germans find in the vault? Was this a secret hiding place for Romanov jewels? No one has yet revealed the secret.

25
French Royals / Re: L imperatrice Marie Louise
« on: May 04, 2016, 01:16:06 PM »
he Disaster at the Ball Given by the Austrian Embassy in Paris, 1810 (1897) by Robert Alexander Hillingford (English 1828-1904)

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/314618723941715005/

this was a very famous fire that occurred during the celebrations at the Austrian embassy to mark the marriage of Napoleon and Marie-Louise, on 1 July, 1810. A candle ignited a curtain and a huge fire broke out. It lasted all the night. Many of the guests were robbed as they escaped.

26
After the murder of the tsar and his family,the Russia authorities searched the palace for hidden treasures.They found some but the Nazis were much more successful, and found lots of items, which were sent to Germany. How did they find these hidden treasures, what were the valuables where were they hidden and where are they now.I am not talking about the amber room, which is all I have been able to see discussed.

Any idea why the Nazis were much more succesful? This pazzles me for some years now, infact I asked it once more in another topic I cannot find today, some years ago. Is there any probability the Nazis had some information the Soviets had not? And if so, where could it be from? Any letters from the Imperial Family to relatives in Germany perhaps contained anything useful? Was it something they (the Nazis) were well prepared to do, the search, did they have tecnological/ scientific means the Soviets of the time did not? All seems improbable but surely there must be an answer somewhere.

27
I always understood that they were originally from Venice but moved to Izmir (Smyrna) and then to Constantinople (Istanbul) in the 18th. century. Helene Vetsera was actually born in France (Marseilles) but at the time of her marriage to Albin von Vetsera (who was from Bratislava, the capital of Slovakia) was described as "the richest young woman in Constantinople". I don't know if this information is of any help!

The irony of being so rich and loose everything!

https://androom.home.xs4all.nl/biography/p008531.htm

28
Their World and Culture / Re: Interesting Women of the Nobility
« on: May 03, 2016, 02:31:06 AM »
Thank you for checking this out!

29
Their World and Culture / Re: Interesting Women of the Nobility
« on: April 30, 2016, 03:55:52 AM »
I am looking for information on a Russian - French poet of Greek origins, countess Eugenie Kapnist. She was already known as a poet in the first years of the 20th century and then she came to Greece to become a nurse during the Balcan wars in the north of Greece, together with some Russian relatives of her. She was engaged to be married to Dr Iason Dragasis-Palaiologos, a Greek doctor who also left his work in France to come and serve in Greece in every war in that troubled decade (1912-1922: 1st and 2nd Balcan wars, WWI, Greek national schism, Greco-Turkish war of 1919-1922).
I'd much like to find more on her, but I was not able to, so I would appreciate your help.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eug%C3%A9nie_Kapnist

30
The Faberze eggs came to Tatoi, Greece, with Queen Olga, but noone knows if any of them are still in the country.

(from the ''Friends of the Tatoi estate'' Eastern e-mail)

Happy Orthodox Easter everyone!

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