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Messages - masha

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Nicholas II / Re: The Otsu Incident on April 29th 1891
« on: March 11, 2004, 07:59:30 PM »
Thanks for your reply, Janet.

Good question about Lady Colin Campbell's sources, as they are not cited anywhere in her book - no bibliography, end notes, nothing. The dust jacket notes that she drew on her intimate knowledge from her connections and personal access to the inner circle at the Court of the House of Windsor. Well, it's a niggling feeling that won't go away as far as my thoughts that something was a-miss with this whole event. I look forward to learning about the Japanese translations, Penny, and any other discoveries on this topic. Again, thanks for your replies everyone. Cheers!

Imperial Russian Antiques / Re: Romanov Items/Souvenirs that You Own
« on: March 09, 2004, 08:34:33 PM »
Dear Konstantin

To me on a personal level $98,000 is alot of money, I mean we paid that much for our first house - but for something like what you have, I would say that it should be worth at least that much. I would also caution you on sending anything that valuable anywhere - take it personally. Also, i would suggest you find a number of opinions, starting with some of the experts at some of the better known auction houses - such as Sotheby's and Christies. Morover, check with some of the big Jewellers - like Cartier. In other words, I'm NOT trying to disuade you from seeking expert advice in Russia (far from it) but being a research professional, I say that one always seeks out more than one source to verify accuracy. Another way to is to check your local library for any books about anitque hallmarks. I truly wish you all the best!

Their World and Culture / Re: The Anti-Semitism of the Romanovs
« on: March 09, 2004, 07:57:32 PM »
Rodger - I back up your statement - I've seen photos of the Imperial family's visit to the Karim Jews in the Crimea - in more than a few books. Also, as far as coming back to the original question about the validity of the last Tsar's sainthood, it must be recalled that in the Orthodox faith, one is taught to forgive and to pray to God for the salvation of one's enemies, which we know all of the Imperial family did in their final days. So regardless of how Nicholas felt about ANYBODY, we know that he forgave them all.
By the way, I too have learned alot about Nicholas' forsight with the Jewish question and am impressed by the overall calibre of the discussion here!

Their World and Culture / Re: The Anti-Semitism of the Romanovs
« on: March 09, 2004, 02:04:00 AM »
Perhaps this will shed light on the issue at hand. Here's an exerpt from Andrei Zolotov, Jr. article from the St. Petersburg Times I found that puts the matter in perspective:

"Metropolitan Yuvenaly, chairman of the Commission on Canonization, said in an interview that he had received hundreds of letters and reports of extremely conflicting nature over the past years regarding the royal family. Some petitioners maintained that the tsar's relationship with Rasputin was an insurmountable obstacle to Nicholas II's sainthood. Others demanded that Rasputin too be canonized....
After five years of deliberations and delays, the church found some middle ground.... the Council of Bishops approved the report of Metropolitan Yuvenaly's commission. The report stated that, while Nicholas II does not deserve sainthood for the way he lived and ruled Russia, the humble Christian way in which the royal family faced imprisonment and death qualified them as strastoterptsy or passion bearers.

This is a special category of Orthodox sainthood, applied to those who strictly speaking were not martyrs, because martyrdom requires that the martyr made a choice between rejecting Christ and dying for him. Passion bearers are instead revered for the humble way in which they met an imminent death. Saints Boris and Gleb, Russia's first saints, were canonized as passion bearers in 1015 because they did not fight their cousins who conspired to kill them in a rivalry for the Kiev throne.

The canonization report described at length how the royal family discouraged any possible plot to free them from captivity, how bitterly the tsar repented for his abdication, how they prayed for Russia and had no enmity toward their jailers."

It should also be pointed out that the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russian had canonized the last Tsar & his family years before. Indeed, within days of the murder, then Patriarch Tikhon, who himself is recognized by both churches as a saint, prayed for the repose of the royal family and venerated their memory.

I know this may very well not convince you, as it does not address the Jewish question, but I can elaborate more if you wish.


Imperial Russian Antiques / Re: Romanov Items/Souvenirs that You Own
« on: March 09, 2004, 01:23:37 AM »
Konstantin - all i can say is wow!!!!!

As Bob says, you still have a ways to go up the hill to verify that it was worn by the Tsar or if indeed it was his baptismal cross - as all the royal family were given these, so it could have belonged to another member of that big family, or it could have been one of a number in stock for future Christenings. But still, what a rarity. Forgive me for asking this, but my eyesight is very bad - were you quoted $98 thousand for it? Just making sure. In any event, I am very happy for you, Konstantin!!


Nicholas II / Re: The Otsu Incident on April 29th 1891
« on: March 07, 2004, 10:57:07 PM »
Hi Everyone,

getting back to the motive behind the Otsue attack on the Tsarevitch, although your arguments supporting the "politcal motive" are good, I'm still not convinced that it was a politcally motivated attack. As i've quoted elsewhere on the board, Nicholas' companion, his Greek Georgie, suffered the blame for instigating the whole thing. You can see the quote I've taken from Lady Colin Campbell's book under the George Alexanderovitch section on the discussion board. In any event, why would any blame be placed upon Prince George if it the motives truly lay elsewhere?

To clarify my statement about Yurovsky - his actions in the "House of Special Purpose" was symbolic of the whole regime that emerged or rather forced it's way into power. The blood on his hands from that night in July 1918 represents the bloodshed and terror that was to come.

Imperial Russian Antiques / Re: Has anyone every been to Yale
« on: March 06, 2004, 09:36:28 PM »
Thank you, Almedingen for the web link!


Imperial Russian Antiques / Re: Romanov Items/Souvenirs that You Own
« on: March 06, 2004, 09:28:54 PM »

I just remembered a description of the last Tsar’s baptismal cross that was given by his youngest sister, Grand Duchess Olga in The Last Grand Duchess by Ian Vorres pp. 21-22 :
Even Nicky was once so hungry that he committed a sacrilege… Every child of the Romanov family had a gold cross given it at its baptism. The cross was hollow and filled with beeswax. An infinitesimal relic of the True Cross was embedded in the wax.  ‘…He opened his cross and ate the contents – relic and all. Later he felt very ashamed of himself but admitted that it had tasted ‘immorally good.’ I was the only one who knew about it…My eldest brother’s sacrilege did not shock us at all. I just laughed, and later whenever we had something nice to eat we would whisper to each other, ‘It’s immorally good,’ and nobody knew our secret.”
If your cross opens and is hollow, then you are on to something big! But, even if it does not meet that description, it could still very well have been in the possession of the imperial family where it once adorned a wall or night table. Hope this helps you – and all the best!

The Final Chapter / Re: Grand Duchess Marie and Ivan Skorokhodov?
« on: March 06, 2004, 08:20:37 PM »
Please forgive me, as I intend no offense but remember - they are saints now, in the eyes of millions of Orthodox Christians. So for those who believe in God, their suffering is over and all we must do in moments of sadness, anger, horror and any other form of temptation when we are reminded of their imprisonment, is to ask them as intersessors to God for their forgivenes & to prayer for us - that is all.

Hello again, Greg

Just a few more observations about both Georges:
To pick-up again about Greek Georgie, I’ll refer again to Lady Colin Campbell in Royal Marriages pg. 51, who states that his reputation had been dealt a deadly blow over the Otsu sabre incident in 1891 during his tour of the Orient with his cousin Nicky, when one of the policemen attacked the Tsarevitch. “As is the way with royal courts, the Tsarevitch’s entourage tried to deflect any hint of blameworthiness, which might devolve upon the future Emperor as a result of policies that had instilled such hostility in the Japanese, and blamed George for provoking the attack. This sullied his honour in an age when a man’s reputation was his most prized possession, and George never recovered from the blow.”  
One wonders if the two cousins’ relationship warbled any as a result of this incident, and if they truly remained firm friends for life – just wondering if you can shed light on this Greg, as I don’t recall ever seeing any pictures of them together after this trip, and most particularly when they were married men.

Picking up the thread with GD George, I had forgotten about the rumours of his morganatic marriages. Now, this is an interesting mystery, especially when one recalls all the huffing and puffing that occurred when his younger brother Michael ran off to do the unthinkable with Natalia Wulfurt. SO, when you say that the documentation about George is lacking, I take it to mean, among other things, that the Empress Maria was rather cryptic in her diaries about this?


Thank you so very much for your response and for all the research you share with us. I will pass on your information to Sour Cream, who I know will also be very grateful for your help.

Lady Colin Campbell in her book Royal Marriages states on page 60: "... for the custom among Continental noblemen and royals was for them to have ourside interests, which the indelicate termed mistresses....Indeed, a lady or two on the side was hardly anything to rant about, not when the Danish and Greek royal families were a study in marital infidelity and odd sexual liaisons. There was Prince George of Greece who was besotted by his decade-older uncle, Prince Waldemar of Denmark."  I have to run now, but will be back with more comments later in the day. Again, cheers!

Hi Robert_Hall,
Not sure who you mean by Penny & Gregg in your last reply. Please elaborate with who they are & whar they mention. Thanks in advance.
Also, as I once heard some royalty reporter/writer on a television program RE: the current British royalty say - the aristocracy are not like you, I & the next door neighbor. Their background is sooooooooo different from the majorityof us, their values are vastly different from ours, & so it should come as no surpise that their behaviour & mores are not things we would accept as normal. And so of course this would apply to the bedroom.

Dear Everybody, but especially Bob, Pravoslavnaya & David Newell for making the discussion poignent , meaningful & even funny - I too, desperately need spellcheck!
First of all, like many who have given serious thought to this whole issue over the years, I've flip-flopped between the two sides Re: the children's survival. For many years from the time of my childhood back in the early 1970's when my father first showed me the picture of the last Tsar, described him in endearing terms & gave me the Massey book to read, I believed that the family all died together. Peter Kurth's book about Anastasia, with his ever convinving way of writing and sources swayed my thinking - eventhough I could never reconcile the looks of Anna Anderson with those of Anastasia. For a few years I came to believe that she & her brother survived.
It was not until I spoke of this with some very dear friends of mine who grew- up & lived through the comminist years in Russia, that I had my mind set straight on the matter & have reverted to my original opionion that they could not have survived anything as so horrid an experience alone. Yes, I'm with you, Insight, as far as the deceitfulness of Yuovsky & his so-called witnesses. His actions, his morality & overall integrity are a reflection of the whole history of the communist regime, who turned their people inside-out & against each other with thier lies, brutality & lack of anything good. How can we trust anyone with so little goodness? There is much more than meets the eye on the latter stages of the whole muder, or as you say, Bob, when things begin to go a-muck. Yet, for anyone who has ever experienced any form of physical violence or brutality, one would have to be certain that the family all died - their killers would make certain of it.
To finish, I would like to end with the Anna Anderson case & the other imposters - again, it's no secret how that regime played mind games with seducers, spies and general mis-information. Don't think for a moment that this whole field day wasn't the intended out-come, and that people like Anderson were either out-right opportunists or slickly coached agents of bedlam.

I think the intent of the initial statement was not meant to offend anyone, or to express any disdain toward homosexuality, but rather to find out the source behind the statments alledged by Mr. Kurth, as no other publication about the family suggests, never mind states, what Mr. Kurth states about either of the Georges. I too have found much here and there in the literature about the Saxe-Coburgs as well as the Romanovs to suggest that alot of homosexual activity occured among many of the male royalty of the day - regardless of their true sexual orientation. A Fatal Passion also strongly suggests that GD Victoria (Ducky) was doubley struck by lightening in both her marriages in this regard by discovering some shocking secrets about her husbands. By the way, I should add that the Orthodox Church does not condemn an individual who is homosexual, just as it does not condemn one who is heterosexual. Rather, what is seen as a failing is one who gives into temptation & acts upon one's desire. The following article say it all - please read it Does this clear the air?

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