Alexandra's Personality Traits - Good & Bad

[ChristineM]

Being born in a stable doesn't mean you are a horse.

Reading about the Italian mafia doesn't mean you are a member or a sympathiser.

Reading about Hitler doesn't make you a Nazi or a fascist.

How come reading the Protocols of the Elders of Zion makes one anti-semitic?

tsaria

[Tsarfan]

How come reading the Protocols of Zion makes one anti-semitic?

The Protocols were an updated version of a much older tract that was republished in Russia with the editing and financial support of Nicholas' Interior Ministry.

In The Fate of the Romanovs by King and Wilson, they report that Nicholas commented favorably on the the tract as being "very timely" during his captivity.

The tract was found on the nightstand in the Grand Duchesses' bedroom after their murder.  I might read Mein Kampf to try to understand Hitler's pathology, but I'm not sure I'd want my children reading it until I was sure they had a context for its venom.

The Imperial Family was not reading this tract to understand the phenomonen on hatred in order to avoid it.

[lexi4]

Here is what King and Wilson say:
Page 175 FOTR: "Incarcerated in the Ipatiev House, Nicholas read "War and Peace" for the first time, along with the works of popular satirist Michael Saltykov-Shchedrin, and, more ominously, a biography of the murdered Emperor Paul !. In addition to the religious works, another favorite was "The Great and the Small and the Coming of the Antichrist," an incendiary, rabidly anti-Semitic work by Serge Nilus; although Nicholas had disavowed the book when confronted with evidence that the OkHrana had helped forge its infamous "Protocols of the Elders of Zion," he frequently read Nilus's book aloud to his family in both Tobolsk and Ekaterinburg, nothing that is made for "very timely reading."

[RichC]

Umm RichC ...?
    I don't HATE Alix - I think she may have been mentally ill. I have posted two or three times that some of her better virtues were in her organizational work to establish numerous hospitals and ad hoc mash units during the war.
    As far as Felix...well HE thought that he was saving Russia by attempting to kill Rasputin (yes it doesn't appear 'rational' to me either) nevertheless that was his claim - you may have a point about it masking something else entirely.

I actually dislike Nicholas and Alexandra equally - but as I am way off topic - I shall stop now.


rskkiya

No. You just called her an anti-Semite!  That's all.  A claim you can't even back up.  And yes, it is hateful to say something like that about someone when it isn't true.

I don't know what I would have thought of Nicholas and Alexandra if I had somehow had the chance to have met them personally.  I don't usually care for people who are haughty  or pretentious, whether they're like that because of some defense mechanism or not.  But I do think it's wrong to make up stuff about people or make exaggerated claims about them based on the thinnest of evidence, or no evidence at all.


Here's an excerpt from a letter written by Grand Duke Alexander Mikhailovich (Sandro) to his brother Nicholas Mikhailovich, February 14, 1917.  It's an accounting of Sandro's meeting with Nicholas and Alexandra at Tsarskoe Selo:

In my conversation with A and N, I also touched on two subjects, which have been raised by Protopopov, the expropriation of landowners' land in favor of the peasants and equal rights for the Jews.  It's typical that Alix did not voice any protest on these questions, while he objected to the first and then appeared confused about the second, replying that it was equality only in the sense of a widening of the Pale of Settlement; I protested as strongly as I could, saying that concessions or new rights for the Jews were unthinkable, that we could not afford to be merciful to a race which the Russian people hate even more now because of their negative attitude towards the war and outright treason; it was noticeable that Alix didn't protest, obviously such projects do exist.

It's clear from this evidence that Alexandra supported equal rights for the Jews in early 1917.  Some anti-Semite.  And if her response is typical, as Sandro says, I think that's a pretty strong indication of where her sympathies lay all along.

[RichC]

Here is what King and Wilson say:
Page 175 FOTR: "Incarceratd in the Ipatiev House, Nicholas read "War and Peace" for the first time, along with the workds of popular satirist Michael Saltykov-Shchedrin, and, mor ominously, a biography of the murdered Emperor Paul !. In addition to the religious works, another favorite was "The Great and the Small and the Coming of the Antichrist," an incendiary, rabidly anti-Semitic work by Serge Nilus; although Nicholas had disavowed the book when confronted with evidence that the OkHrana had helped forge its infamous "Protocols of the Elders of Zion," he frequently read Nilus's book aloud to his family in both Tobolsk and Ekaterinburg, nothing that is made for "very timely reading."

Well, there's at least one factual error here.  In November 1898 Nicholas wrote to his mother in regard to Alexandra's latest pregnancy.

"The nausea is gone. she walks very little, and when it is warm sits on the balcony...In the evening, when she is in bed, I read to her.  We have finished WAR AND PEACE."

Also, I don't recall the Tsar reading the Protocols out loud to his family!

The notes in FOTR indicate a diary entry which I have been unable to find....

[Finelly]

This is supposed to be a thread about her POSITIVE traits.

You quoted a diary entry from one of Alexandra's pregnancies.  Lexi was quoting a recitation of an event years later.

RichC, we have discussed ad nauseum the antisemitism of the Romanovs.  It's pretty clear that like most Russians in their time, they were anti semitic, both from a religious perspective (Jews are said to be Christ-killers) and a racial perspective (they thought Jews were a race).  Alexandra was no different.  

I am interested that while I as a Jew can accept this and still consider the positive aspects of Alexandra and be fascinated by the Romanovs, you are having a difficult time.

[rskkiya]

No. You just called her an anti-semite!  That's all.  A claim you can't even back up.  

Rich C
I have posted all the evidence under the the topic The  Antisemitism of the Romanovs.
   I will gladly admit that it was NOT in her last diary that she expressed anti semetic views, rather it was in  The Complete War Correspondences I admit my mistake and apologize for misattributing information to the wrong source.
   Nicholas DID read to the family in March and April {Alix notes this in her Diary on pages 91 and 100} from The Protocals and The Great in the Small - another antisemetic text.

   Alix was a complicated woman with many faults and many good points.
   I will correct my previous posts.

rskkiya

[RichC]

THis is supposed to be a thread about her POSITIVE traits.

You quoted a diary entry from one of Alexandra's pregnancies.  Lexi was quoting a recitation of an event years later.

I quoted a letter, not a diary entry.  Lexi was (correctly) quoting a passage from FOTR; I was pointing out that some of the information in FOTR is wrong.  

If this thread is about positive traits, what's wrong with my showing that posts about Alexandra being an anti-semite are wrong?

RichC, we have discussed ad nauseum the antisemitism of the Romanovs.  It's pretty clear that like most Russians in their time, they were antisemites, both from a religious perspective (Jews are said to be christ-killers) and a racial perspective (they thought Jews were a race).  Alexandra was no different.  

I think you are wrong.  I do not believe that Alexandra shared these beliefs.  

I am interested that while I as a Jew can accept this and still consider the positive aspects of Alexandra and be fascinated by the Romanovs, you are having a difficult time.

In tracing my family geneology back to the 17th century, I discovered my mother's family was jewish.  So, although I'm not of the Jewish faith, some of my ancestors were.  But my religion, or your religion is beside the point.  I have a difficult time with stuff that's untrue, or, at the very least exaggerated.  

The fact is that you cannot find any scholarly work that says Alexandra was an anti-semite because there isn't enough evidence.  No responsible scholar is going to say that.  Do you understand that?

Alexandra was not Russian.  She was half-English and half-German.  Neither she nor her sister were raised with the typical Russian attitudes toward Jews.  Why would she be sponsoring legislation for full-civil rights for the Jews (and it is clear she did so) if she was an anti-semite?

Sorry folks,  I know most of you disagree with me.  But nobody has been able to refute anything I have said.  And I have just as much right to post here as anybody else.  

[lexi4]

RichC,
Thank you for pointing out the inconsistency regarding the reading of War and Peace. I have double checked the entry in FOTR and I did quote it correctly. Here is the documentation they used for that passage.
"N diary, March 27, 1918, in GARF, f. 601, op. 1. d. 266. For more information on this issue see King and Wilson, "Inheitance of Blood: Official Anti-Semitism and the Last of the Romanovs," Atlantis Magazine 3, no3 (2002): 25-51; also www.atlantis-magazine.com. See AF diary, May 3, 5,6,7, and 12, 1918 in GARF, f. 640, op, 1,d. 326
Correct me if I am wrong, but that annotation tells me I have no independent way to verify their information since I do not have access to GARF.

[rskkiya]

The fact is that you cannot find any scholarly work that says Alexandra was an anti-Semite because there isn't enough evidence.  No responsible scholar is going to say that.  Do you understand that?

This is an incorrect statement please see my previously mentioned posts - as well as the scholarship of Fuhrmann, Figes and Crankshaw.

Rich C, you do not have to admit that Alix was anti semitic - she may have had other pleasant qualities ... please do express them here!

Where is the evidence of her legislation for Jewish right? A source please!

The facts remain the same
rskkiya

[Carol_Shvybzyk]

A quick answer:
The way she was always able to take care of the wounded soldiers on the war;Her love for Nicholas and her children (in general).
xxx,
Ana Carolina.

[RichC]

This is an incorrect statement please see my previously mentioned posts - as well as the scholarship of Fuhrmann, Figes and Crankshaw.

Rich C, you do not have to admit that Alix was anti semetic - she may have had other pleasant qualities ... please do espress them here!

Where is the evidence of her legislation for jewish right? A source please!

The facts remain the same
rskkiya

Well, a number of the snippets you posted on the other thread aren't even about Jews at all.  They are about freemansons, not Jews.

As to the rest of the quotes you listed, these statements could just as easily have come out of the mouths of Theodore Roosevelt, Franklin Roosevelt, Harry S Truman,  John F. Kennedy, Richard Nixon or even Jesse Jackson.  But none of these people are thought of as anti-semites.

You are applying a 21st century standard of political correctness to comments that were written 90 years ago.  And there is nothing in any of Alexandra's surviving diaries (so far) that indicates she was an anti-semite.  You also need to consider to whom she was writing and the context in which the lines were written.  

One of the quotes you site is actually about Alexandra advocating with Nicholas about the plight of a Jew who fought in the war, was wounded, and wanted to be treated just like any other Russian (same rights to live wherever he wanted, etc.)  That's hardly anti-semetic!

It is true that Nicholas read aloud "The Great in the Small" both in Tobolsk and Ekaterinburg but Alexandra doesn't appear to have been listening too intently as she refers to it in her diary as "The Small in the Great".  Also, this book apparently is about the anti-Christ appearing on Earth and the coming apocalypse.  The Jews, freemasons and socialists are all lumped together and blamed.  It's hard to believe that even Nicholas would have taken this stuff seriously, but Russia was in the midst of being taken over by an avowedly atheistic government, everyone they knew was being either arrested or shot, their entire world was turned upside down...  Given the situation, it's hardly surprising that Nicholas was taken in by this book which pandered to the typical anti-semetic outlook of most Russians.  

But I just don't see it with Alexandra.  The legislation is discussed by GD Alexander Mikhailovich in the letter to his brother, GD Nicholas Mikhailovich.  See my post, above.  It is also mentioned in Kerensky's memoirs, although I have not read his memoirs.

BTW, Nicholas Mikhailovich, the so-called "liberal historian" was in reality an extremely virulent anti-semite, on par with Alexander III.  He hated Alexandra with a venom that makes Pobedenotsev's hatred of the Jews seem tame!  To him, she was the "Hessian Hussy".

[Finelly]

EXCUSE ME?  Richard Nixon and Jesse Jackson aren't consider antisemites?

That's news to me and the entire Jewish community.....

[rskkiya]

Well, a number of the snippets you posted on the other thread aren't even about Jews at all.  They are about freemasons, not Jews.

REREAD my posts .
In the Protocols, Freemasons were considered the puppets of the "Jewish conspiracy" [three post refer to Freemasons, the rest were regarding the Jews] and I am familiar with the issue of the emigrated Jew that Alix discusses in the letter - YES, I POSTED IT! She is more charitable there than in other comments -  yet she continues to make anti semitic comments elsewhere in later letters.
   I would recommend that you read these letters Rich C, you would find the text very interesting. It's also  true that many people today and in the last 80 years still express antisemitic views, I won't argue that fact.She was a creature of her time. But that doesn't change the evidence.
    Do you have a source for your claim that she tried to pass "legislation" to liberate Russian Jews...as a historian and scholar I am honestly interested in any evidence that you possess. It could make for an interesting positive trait but only if you can document it.

 positive trait She tried to take care of her family in spite of her own difficult emotional and physical health, and she wanted her daughters to fall happily in love, as she did.

rs

PS, RichC, PLEASE join me on the Anti semitism thread so that we can discuss this further there.!i

[rskkiya]

Lets open this up...what traits did the young Alix express?
I have read that as a child she suffered many personal tragedies - did she work to organize charities as a teen?
Any experts on Alix of Hesse out there?