Author Topic: Alexandra's Personality Traits - Good & Bad  (Read 292303 times)

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RissiaSunbeam1918

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Re: Alexandra's Personality Traits - Good & Bad
« Reply #120 on: June 27, 2005, 09:41:35 AM »
Well, people were against Jewish people more back then for whatever reasons they may have had. I think. Why would Alexandra have been any different?

Like the guy who wrote Wizard of Oz hid some racist remarks in his books, but in Baum's day, racism was a part of life, and wasn't unacceptable.

Please note, I am not saying either of them were RIGHT...I am not for either of these things....

Offline RichC

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Re: Alexandra's Personality Traits - Good & Bad
« Reply #121 on: June 27, 2005, 10:19:47 AM »
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REREAD my posts .
In the Protocals, freemasons were considered the puppets of the "Jewish conspiracy" [three post refer to freemasons, the rest were regarding the jews] and I am familiar with the issue of the emigrated jew that Alix discusses in the letter - YES, I POSTED IT! She is more charitable there than in other comments -  yet she continues to make antisemetic comments elsewhere in later letters.
   I would recommend that you read these letters Rich C, you would find the text very interesting. It's also  true that many people today and in the last 80 years still express antisemitic views, I won't argue that fact.She was a creature of her time. But that doesn't change the evidence.
    Do you have a source for your claim that she tried to pass "legislation" to liberate russian jews...as a historian and scholar I am honestly interested in any evidence that you possess. It could make for an interesting positive trait but only if you can document it.

 positive trait She tried to take care of her family inspite of her own difficult emotional and physical health, and she wanted her daughters to fall happily in love, as she did.

rs

PS, RichC, PLEASE join me on the Anti semitism thread so that we can discuss this further there.!i



Excuse me but *you* brought this up here with your comments, on this positive traits thread, saying she was an anti-semite, calling people deluded for disagreeing, not me.  Stop jumping all over me for defending her HERE.

When I say scholarly, I mean peer reviewed scholarship.  In my view, to call ones self a scholar, one has to be in the academy.  I'm just a guy who's interested in the Romanovs.  So, I'm not a scholar, but I don't think a scholar would label her an anti-semite based on what you have posted here; stuff that's been known for decades.  

Also, as I said earlier, but you ignored, you have to take her comments in the context of the situation in which she wrote those lines.  She was trying to get Nicholas to do what she wanted and she wasn't above appealing to his anti-semitic leanings to do that.  Her comments are hardly laudable.  She was a creature of her time and that doesn't change the evidence, as you say, but it does change how one judges it's meaning.  But you aren't doing that.  You are judging her as if she said these things on national television, today, in 2005, and I don't think that is fair.

You are holding her to a standard that, I dare say, you yourself have never been held to, or any of the rest of us.  All of her private correspondence and diaries are open for the world to see.  I wonder what one would find if one went through all of your private correspondence, or indeed, any random individual who didn't expect the world to ever see what they were saying.  That's why I say it is important to consider the context and to whose eyes those lines were meant for.  They weren't meant for your eyes, rskkiya...

What public statements did Alexandra make regarding the Jews?  None that I know of.  The only thing that I can find is the proposed legislation to give them equal rights, the source for which I have cited.


rskkiya

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Re: Alexandra's Personality Traits - Good & Bad
« Reply #122 on: June 27, 2005, 10:47:12 AM »
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Here's an excerpt from a letter written by Grand Duke Alexander Mikhailovich (Sandro) to his brother Nicholas Mikhailovich, February 14, 1917.  It's an accounting of Sandro's meeting with Nicholas and Alexandra at Tsarskoe Selo:

In my conversation with A and N, I also touched on two subjects, which have been raised by Protopopov, the expropriation of landowners' land in favor of the peasants and equal rights for the Jews.  It's typical that Alix did not voice any protest on these questions, while he objected to the first and then appeared confused about the second, replying that it was equality only n the sense of a widening of the Pale of Settlement; I protested as strongly as I could, saying that concessions or new rights for the Jews were unthinkable, that we could not afford to be merciful to a race which the Russian people hate even more now because of their negative attitude towards the war and outright treason; it was noticeable that Alix didn't protest, obviously such projects do exist.


Please can you tell me where this letter is?

Offline RichC

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Re: Alexandra's Personality Traits - Good & Bad
« Reply #123 on: June 27, 2005, 11:15:55 AM »
Sandro's letter is (I believe) in the State Archives of the Russian Federation.  It's reprinted (in full) in A Lifelong Passion, (Doubleday, 1997).  The ISBN is 0-385-48673-1.  You can probably find it heavily discounted these days.  The letter, which is dated February 14, 1917, was addressed to his brother, Nicholas Mikhailovich, who as I said earlier, was a rabid anti-semite.  

Offline Tsarfan

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Re: Alexandra's Personality Traits - Good & Bad
« Reply #124 on: June 27, 2005, 02:47:00 PM »
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In my conversation with A and N, I also touched on two subjects, which have been raised by Protopopov, the expropriation of landowners' land in favor of the peasants and equal rights for the Jews.  It's typical that Alix did not voice any protest on these questions, while he objected to the first and then appeared confused about the second, replying that it was equality only n the sense of a widening of the Pale of Settlement; I protested as strongly as I could, saying that concessions or new rights for the Jews were unthinkable, that we could not afford to be merciful to a race which the Russian people hate even more now because of their negative attitude towards the war and outright treason; it was noticeable that Alix didn't protest, obviously such projects do exist.

It's clear from this evidence that Alexandra supported equal rights for the Jews in early 1917.


I'm not really sure what this letter reveals one way or the other about Alexandra's position on the Jews.

Sandro says "it's typical that Alexandra did not voice any protest on these questions . . . ."  He's referring to two questions in this remark.  Does this then mean that Alexandra took a different view from her husband on distribution of land to the peasants?  Or could Sandro instead be reporting that Alexandra was not interested enough in these two particular issues to take a stance in contravention to her husband's?

Also, Sandro said Nicholas seemed confused about the Jewish question, thinking the only project was to expand the Pale of Settlement.  If Alexandra's silence meant there were further projects regarding the Jews, wasn't this tantamount to saying that there were significant government projects underway about which Alexandra was informed but Nicholas was not?

And, if that's the case, doesn't it suggest that Alexandra was more in control of the government than Nicholas shortly before the revolution -- something that others have adamantly argued was not the case?

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Re: Alexandra's Personality Traits - Good & Bad
« Reply #125 on: June 27, 2005, 03:26:37 PM »
Please, take the anti-semitism discussion over to the appropriate thread. This thread is for discussion of Alexandra's postive traits. Please stay closer to topic.
Thanks
FA

Offline Tsarfan

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Re: Alexandra's Personality Traits - Good & Bad
« Reply #126 on: June 27, 2005, 03:45:50 PM »
Sorry, I was trying to take the discussion of Sandro's letter and Alexandra's position on Jews and spin it back into a discussion of just what Alexandra's role in the government was in the final weeks preceding the revolution.

I think the question of how she handled herself in those critical weeks sheds light on whether her traits as empress (as opposed to her traits as a person) were positive or negative in effect.

I'm not really sure that belongs on the anti-semitism thread . . . but I'll take it there if you insist.

Offline RichC

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Re: Alexandra's Personality Traits - Good & Bad
« Reply #127 on: June 27, 2005, 08:38:03 PM »
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Please, take the anti-semitism discussion over to the appropriate thread. This thread is for discussion of Alexandra's postive traits. Please stay closer to topic.
Thanks
FA


Can't supporting civil rights for the Jews be an example of a positive trait?

Finelly

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Re: Alexandra's Personality Traits - Good & Bad
« Reply #128 on: June 27, 2005, 08:45:36 PM »
Sure.  Show me objective, factual proof that she advocated for this.  

Offline RichC

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Re: Alexandra's Personality Traits - Good & Bad
« Reply #129 on: June 27, 2005, 09:11:56 PM »
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Sure.  Show me objective, factual proof that she advocated for this.  


What Sandro is saying is that Alix refused to deny that there were plans afoot to give equal rights to the Jews.  Nicholas was the one who denied it, saying the new law was only meant to widen the Pale of Settlement.

It's quite clear that Sandro was upset that Protopopov was intending to give equal rights to the Jews and that Alexandra, at least, endorsed it.

Offline RichC

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Re: Alexandra's Personality Traits - Good & Bad
« Reply #130 on: June 27, 2005, 09:32:36 PM »
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Positive traits please...  
there's another thread for this...


Hello!  This is positive!

Offline Georgiy

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Re: Alexandra's Personality Traits - Good & Bad
« Reply #131 on: June 27, 2005, 09:47:21 PM »
Maybe the fact that she has the posthumous ability to inspire debate and discussion nearly a century after her death could be viewed as a somewhat positive trait.

Finelly

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Re: Alexandra's Personality Traits - Good & Bad
« Reply #132 on: June 27, 2005, 10:21:41 PM »
I'm sorry, but neglecting to deny something is not advocating it.  NOT a positive trait.

Offline RichC

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Re: Alexandra's Personality Traits - Good & Bad
« Reply #133 on: June 28, 2005, 08:27:29 AM »
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I'm sorry, but neglecting to deny something is not advocating it.  NOT a positive trait.


I disagree completely.

Sandro's letter is quite clear, in my view.  You don't agree, that's your opinion.  But there are a number of other people who see it the same way as I do; and there is a page about it on this website:

http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/newstudy.html

Protopopov would never have proposed such a law without Alexandra's support, at least.  Alexandra (and Nicholas) knew very well how much opposition such a project would generate -- that's why they were so closed-mouthed in the meeting with Sandro.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by RichC »

Offline Tsarfan

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Re: Alexandra's Personality Traits - Good & Bad
« Reply #134 on: June 28, 2005, 08:57:08 AM »
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Protopopov would never have proposed such a law without Alexandra's support, at least.  Alexandra (and Nicholas) knew very well how much opposition such a project would generate -- that's why they were so close-mouthed in the meeting with Sandro.


I find this letter utterly confusing.

Take the land reform question that Sandro mentioned.  If Alexandra's silence is taken to mean that there was a proposal and she knew of it, that means either that Nicholas was lying or that he knew nothing of it.

So . . . were major pieces of legislation being discussed with Alexandra of which Nicholas knew nothing?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Tsarfan »