Author Topic: End of the Monarchies  (Read 48833 times)

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Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #60 on: January 09, 2008, 04:48:32 PM »
There is no such thing as "The Republic of North America". However, the independance of the United States of America was a begining of the end of monarchies.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

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Offline Adagietto

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #61 on: January 09, 2008, 06:00:59 PM »
It had no effect on the monarchy that one might expect to have been primarily affected by it. Most of the monarchies that have disappeared in Europe have done so as a result of the instabilities that arose from the First World War, it had nothing whatever to do with America, or even with a prevalence of republican ideas among the populations affected. The surviving European monarchies aren't going to disappear any time soon; monarchy is a surprisingly adaptable institution. In Britain, incidentally, the percentage of the population that would prefer a republic has remained vitually unchanged over fifty years. The greatest danger to the monarchy is not republican ideas but indifference. 

Offline dmitri

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #62 on: January 09, 2008, 06:01:28 PM »
I think how much "dynastic rule" we are willing to accept! It is an interesting discussion. If we go back to the original topic it is apparent to see similarities when the Hohenzollern monarchy was abolished and a republic imposed. The republican form of government changed from Weimar to Third Reich to Bundesrepublik and German Democratic Republic. Perhaps the Bundesrepublik works. It still denies the German people the right to elect their President. It also makes no provision for referendums. Like many republics it is one that was imposed on the people.

Offline dmitri

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #63 on: January 09, 2008, 06:03:42 PM »
Indifference, apathy or just general ignorance are the greatest dangers to democracy anywhere. Note how so many can not be bothered, for whatever reason, going out to vote at elections in many so-called democracies. This is a real worry.

Offline Ilias_of_John

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #64 on: January 09, 2008, 10:41:15 PM »
I do not believe that dynastics of any kind is  acceptable in a socalled presidential republic such as the united states.
It is very evident to those of us outside of your borders that your political and financial system is in dissaray and that something needs to be done quickly to rectify the situation.
I only hope for your sakes that you are able to do so before you become the laughing stock of the planet.The Imperialism of your Presidential office no longer holds the respect it once used to, especially after the current incumbant and his policies.
Anyway, to get back to Monarchies and their end or demise.History tends to repeat itself and as times change so do political affiliations.Examples are numerous ala, the Buonapartes, and they're two empires,various English Royal Families or dynasts there off, the Orleans family, and the numerous branches and returns and removals from the thrones of Spain and France, and of course the Greek Kings and their exiles and returns.
Anyone for crouchet?
:)
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Honour the king.
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Alixz

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #65 on: January 09, 2008, 11:31:14 PM »
It is interesting that the monarchy that the American Revolution overthrew is still around and one of the longest lasting.

I don't know if the dynasties that have formed in our presidents families were connived or accidental.  Think of John Adams and his son JQ Adams.  I am sure that one was planned.

The two Harrisons - grandfather and grandson.

The Roosevelts, but they were of different parties and were 5th cousins not close relations.

And, of course, the Bush family.  I am sure that this one was planned as well.

And now, of course, the Clintons which is well planned and has been in the works since 1999.  But we still have about 10 months to the general election and there is still hope that calmer and clearer heads will prevail.  Or, as my son often says, the voters will pull their heads out of their tail pipes and get a grip on what is really going on.

Can anyone imagine the barbarism that would occur if our oil supplies ran out and we couldn't run our gas guzzling vehicles?  Some of us lived through the first OPEC "shortage" in the 1970s and we remember gas lines and making an appointment to get gas!!!!  And as for heating oil, those in the warmer states said "let the Yankees freeze".

But I agree with Ilias_of_John.  Our prestige has fallen very low with the rest of the world.  It isn't the system that is at fault, but those who are now engaged in running it to ruin.

And monarchies do tend to come back from time to time as in the Bonapartes, and the Bourbons, and especially in the Greek Monarchy which came and went and came and went and George I of Greece wasn't even Greek!  It always amazed me how countries would "elect" a king from the princes of other countries and then try to make them over into citizens of their new country and how upset the new country got when the transformation didn't happen the way they wanted it to.

There is a time for abdication, too.  And Franz Joseph should have abdicated long before the beginning of the Great War.  And Nicholas II, if he had abdicated in 1905, who knows how different things might have been.  And Wilhelm I of Germany who lived into his 90s should also have abdicated in favor of his son Fritz.  That is why businesses have retirement ages.  Monarchies should have had them, too.

The sons of George III who reigned for him as regents would have been much more effective if old George had abdicated in his senility.

And Ilias_of_John, do you mean croquet?   ;-)





« Last Edit: January 09, 2008, 11:33:09 PM by Alixz »

Offline Adagietto

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #66 on: January 10, 2008, 05:20:49 AM »
The trouble with abdication is that it suggests that ruling as a sovereign is just like any other job, it detracts from the mystique of the monarchy; only in the Netherlands has it become an accepted practice. Impossible to imagine Queen Victoria having abdicated!

Alixz

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #67 on: January 10, 2008, 08:17:43 AM »
I knew that posters would think of Victoria that way and I intentionally left her off the list.

However, as astute and as wise as she was in ruling, she was abominable to her son and heir.  Had she perhaps abdicated in is favor at her Diamond Jubilee, he would have had more time to reign and perhaps left a different kind of legacy.  Heck, all she had to do was to let him help her as his father did.  The problem was that she thought Albert Edward useless and, of course, never as "good" as his father.

But the Windsors do refer to the Monarchy as "the family business" and as such they should think more of the future and the impression of the monarchy and not the old fashioned notion of ruling until death.

Image if Elizabeth II abdicated and then Charles in turn abdicated in favor of William.  The monarchy would be refreshed and rejuvenated and brought quite nicely into the 21st century.  How coincidental that the 20th century brought the same scenario as the 19th century with Victoria ruling and Albert Edward waiting and Elizabeth II ruling and Charles in waiting.

Offline Norbert

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #68 on: January 10, 2008, 09:36:49 AM »
Her Majesty The Queen  cannot abdicate as she has taken a sacred oath at her coronation!

Offline Norbert

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #69 on: January 10, 2008, 09:51:12 AM »
I am shocked that Alixz should have such contempt for a woman who has given her whole life to the public service of her people. Since the Wars there have been countless "new dawns" and an inexhaustible supply of "new pages'. To quote Oscar Wilde" there is nothing so old fashioned as always trying to be modern".

Offline dmitri

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #70 on: January 10, 2008, 10:43:11 AM »
I tend to think the days of restorations are over. The ones mentioned have been gone a very, very long time. Even the Greeks have been gone now for nearly 34 years. That is far longer than any time in their family history of exile abroad. This time the republican regime in Greece is determined to stay no matter how much of a mess they make of it all.

Offline HerrKaiser

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« Reply #71 on: January 10, 2008, 10:48:47 AM »
I don't think Alixz was intending to be contemptuous whatsoever about QEII. In fact, to read that into Alixz' comments underscores the level of emotion that dynastic entities create over time and which can lead to highly sensitized protectionism and adoration. "Sacred oath" denying her the choice to abdicate? This is perhaps true in what one poster referred to as the "mystique" of the royal family, but when it comes to matters beyond mystique, we have to deal with reality.

And while the remaining monarchies may appear solid and have a level of support based on tradition and historical value, they have almost no place at the table of their internal politics or social issues much less global politics, and it is very unlikely that this would ever change. Monarchies worked when most of peoples of the world were under or uneducated and unable to do much for themselves, including particiapting in the governmental decisions.

HerrKaiser

Offline Learning

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #72 on: January 10, 2008, 11:36:21 AM »
If I understand the Basic Law (constitution) of the Federal Republic of Germany correctly, one cannot even propose an amendment to the Basic Law to change the system of government from a republic to something else. So, to restore one or more German monarchies, a whole new constitution would have to be adopted with all the issues surrounding that, or the Basic Law's own amendment provisions would have to be disregarded. Of course, this is purely an academic discussion.

Offline Norbert

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #73 on: January 10, 2008, 01:10:26 PM »
Funny how all these new nations can't wait to invite The Queen to legitimise their new governments with a state visit.

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: End of the Monarchies
« Reply #74 on: January 10, 2008, 01:34:20 PM »
Funny how all these new nations can't wait to invite The Queen to legitimise their new governments with a state visit.


What new nations are you referring to? thanks.
HerrKaiser