Author Topic: Richard Schweitzer, Husband of Marina Botkin: General Q & A  (Read 88629 times)

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Offline Annie

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Re: Richard Schweitzer, Husband of Marina Botkin: General Q & A
« Reply #180 on: October 29, 2007, 06:02:13 PM »
Give me a break. Many a pretender from the "low-class" stock (most of them are) have fooled the "upper-class" fools ready and willing to be fooled. And I am sure many will continue to do just that. That is the silliest argument I have seen so far (and there have been many silly ones here).

Absolutely. And Hollywood is full of actors and actresses from 'poor' families who have managed to portray many characters successfully, even royalty, and fit in very well with the society and rich folk of Beverly Hills.

Offline Belochka

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Re: Richard Schweitzer, Husband of Marina Botkin: General Q & A
« Reply #181 on: October 29, 2007, 06:05:01 PM »
Do not actors come from all kinds of backgrounds?

With good training their accepting audiences are inclined to believe their staged performances.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2007, 06:08:08 PM by Belochka »


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Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Richard Schweitzer, Husband of Marina Botkin: General Q & A
« Reply #182 on: October 29, 2007, 06:08:28 PM »
Hollywood is full of actors and actresses from 'poor' families who have managed to portray many characters successfully, even royalty, and fit in very well with the society and rich folk of Beverly Hills.

I am sure Mr Schweitzer would know the difference.  ::)

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Re: Richard Schweitzer, Husband of Marina Botkin: General Q & A
« Reply #183 on: October 29, 2007, 08:16:25 PM »
Give me a break. Many a pretender from the "low-class" stock (most of them are) have fooled the "upper-class" fools ready and willing to be fooled. And I am sure many will continue to do just that. That is the silliest argument I have seen so far (and there have been many silly ones here).

Absolutely. And Hollywood is full of actors and actresses from 'poor' families who have managed to portray many characters successfully, even royalty, and fit in very well with the society and rich folk of Beverly Hills.

Ava Gardner was a close friend of my Dad.  When I went up to Cambridge University (Pembroke College actually) in1978, she invited me to spend a week at her flat in Kensington as her guest.  We became friends as well. A wonderful, dear woman.  When I went back to London in 1984, she hosted a party in my honor.  Ava was born dirt poor in North Carolina. Literally barefoot. When I knew her, she was as "upper class", well bred, well spoken, elegant as they came. I grew up in Beverly Hills, I knew and know wealthy well bred people. Ava, from her tobacco farm barefoot starving lowest possible class background was every bit a noble woman of charm, grace, class and elegance.  Her best friend was Princess Grace of Monaco, and she was Princess Caroline's godmother. She summered on the Aga Khan's yacht.

Schweitzer wont answer my questions. He CANT give straight honest answers to straight honest questions he doesn't like. Its not in him. His type is why I retired from practice as an attorney.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2007, 08:18:17 PM by Forum Admin »

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Re: Richard Schweitzer, Husband of Marina Botkin: General Q & A
« Reply #184 on: October 30, 2007, 08:00:35 AM »
To get on the band wagon, my dad was brought up in Waterbury, CT and he knew Rosalind Russell.  She was born in Waterbury in 1907 and he was born there in 1918. She was eleven years older than he, but he knew her family and also knew her.

These is no more of a working class city than Waterbury, CT.  The emphasis was on brass and the many brass works employed most of the town's citizens.  Miss Russell went on to study acting in New York and the rest is history. 

Anyone can become someone no matter where they are born or brought up.

I have stopping asking Mr. Schweitzer my "simple" question.  Not because I want to be rude or insensitive, but because I know that he has no intention of answering. 

In a way, Bear is right, Mr. Schweitzer will never change his mind about the identity of the woman whom he knew and who became such an obsession to his father-in-law.

When I said that Jack Manahan had Franzeska's remains cremated to prevent future exposure of her as a fraud, I was not suggesting that Jack had some kind of precognitive event and was circumventing the testing of DNA before the testing was even invented as Mr. Schweitzer suggested. 

I simply meant that Jack was circumventing any testing on the remains that would have been available in the year that Franzeska died.  Finger prints, dental records, the "eternal" ear measurements an autopsy or the study of those famous feet and probably at lot more testing than I know about.

That is the kind of answer that Mr. Schweitzer gives.  I ask if Jack had Franzeska cremated to avoid identity testing, and Mr. Schweitzer replies asking if I thought that Jack was trying to prevent DNA testing which was not even invented at that time.  And that, as far as Mr. Schweitzer knew, there was little evidence that Jack had "precognitive" abilities.

Mr. Schweitzer turned a simple question about the cremation of a supposed Russian Orthodox observant into a joke about the pre-cognitive abilities of Jack Manahan.

Again, obfuscation.  If I ever needed a lawyer, Mr. Schweitzer is just the type I would want on my side.  He would have the jury so confused and even the prosecution would be believing his closing arguments.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2007, 08:03:57 AM by Alixz »

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Re: Richard Schweitzer, Husband of Marina Botkin: General Q & A
« Reply #185 on: October 30, 2007, 08:42:11 AM »
To be completely correct in my quoting of Mr. Schweitzer and so as not to "parphrase" --

"To state, without support, that Jack determined upon cremation of Anastasia's remains in order to eliminate the prospects of post-mortem identification, would credit Jack more foresight of scientific advances to come than his known interests would indicate. Where on earth does that idea originate?"

This is the exact quote from Mr. Schweitzer.  He did not mention precognitive abilities, but said "more foresight of scientific advances to come".  I just wanted to be clear and not be accused of "massaging" the text.

And the idea originates with me and others who find that the cremation of Franzeska would put a halt to any and all scientific investigation that was available at the time of her death, not the kind of investigation that would be available in the future.

While I posting, I noticed that Mr. Schweitzer was "lurking" and reading.  I hope that he will take the time to answer some of our "simple" questions.

Offline Annie

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Re: Richard Schweitzer, Husband of Marina Botkin: General Q & A
« Reply #186 on: October 30, 2007, 09:53:28 AM »

When I said that Jack Manahan had Franzeska's remains cremated to prevent future exposure of her as a fraud, I was not suggesting that Jack had some kind of precognitive event and was circumventing the testing of DNA before the testing was even invented as Mr. Schweitzer suggested. 

I simply meant that Jack was circumventing any testing on the remains that would have been available in the year that Franzeska died.  Finger prints, dental records, the "eternal" ear measurements an autopsy or the study of those famous feet and probably at lot more testing than I know about.

And don't forget blood tests!

My question to Mr. Schweitzer was whether it was Jack or Anna herself who requested cremation. All these years, in several writings, I had always heard AA was cremated according to HER wishes. This to me would mean that she knew she wasn't AN and wanted to make sure no one else ever knew. I have always found her mode of 'burial' quite peculiar for that reason. If she had really been AN, she'd have wanted an Orthodox funeral, perhaps even requesting some spot of honor in Russia, or a noteable Orthodox cemetary in Paris? While I know we may never know, I still wonder if she totally knew she wasn't really AN. (in later, demented years, I am convinced she knew it when she was younger) In a way, I think Jack believed she was AN more than she did, and this is why I don't think it was Jack who would have ordered cremation to hide the evidence. If he ordered it, it was at her request.( Mr. Schweitzer neither confirms or denies this.)

But Alixz and FA, though your stories are great, I'm sorry to say there's just no way it could have been Gardner and Russell, they must have been wealthy socialites who looked just like them starved for attention and pretending to be movie stars. You know it's 'impossible' and 'inconceivable' for a person of working class origins to have class and become a lady high society. ;) ::)


« Last Edit: October 30, 2007, 09:56:19 AM by Annie »

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Richard Schweitzer, Husband of Marina Botkin: General Q & A
« Reply #187 on: October 30, 2007, 10:31:18 AM »
It appears that most of you are giving  AA  the sembelance of the female  in  My Fair Lady  who once sold posies and with the help  of  Prof. Higgins became a lady in appearance and speech for a day.

Being a good actress for a day is one  thing,  playing the part  from 1920 to the 1980s  is  an awful  long time.  And,  it appears that AA  never provided  Richard Schweitzer with  a single moment which caused him to doubt AA.

Since I have never been given a reason to doubt  Schweitzer's  stories,   I  find this absolutely  fastinating.

AGRBear

 



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Offline Annie

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Re: Richard Schweitzer, Husband of Marina Botkin: General Q & A
« Reply #188 on: October 30, 2007, 10:37:17 AM »
It appears that most of you are giving  AA  the sembelance of the female  in  My Fair Lady  who once sold posies and with the help  of  Prof. Higgins became a lady in appearance and speech for a day.

Yes, and Berenberg-Gossler even made that comparison.

Quote
Being a good actress for a day is one  thing,  playing the part  from 1920 to the 1980s  is  an awful  long time.

It could well be dementia set in and she ended up believing it, as Johnny Weissmuller went off his rocker and believed he was Tarzan in his old age. Also, there was much too much to lose by ever admitting to fraud, ranging from embarrassment to possible legal charges. Of course she had to keep it up.  After she married Manahan, who believed she was AN, she could never admit it or risk losing her husband/meal ticket.

 
« Last Edit: October 30, 2007, 10:38:50 AM by Annie »

Offline Eddie_uk

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Re: Richard Schweitzer, Husband of Marina Botkin: General Q & A
« Reply #189 on: October 30, 2007, 11:48:44 AM »
Being a good actress for a day is one  thing,  playing the part  from 1920 to the 1980s  is  an awful  long time.  And,  it appears that AA  never provided  Richard Schweitzer with  a single moment which caused him to doubt AA.

Since I have never been given a reason to doubt  Schweitzer's  stories,   I  find this absolutely  fastinating.


But Bear dear, he never knew the REAL Anastasia! :)
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Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Richard Schweitzer, Husband of Marina Botkin: General Q & A
« Reply #190 on: October 30, 2007, 12:36:45 PM »
I think what Bear means is that Mr Schweitzer never doubted that AA came from "high class" background  and couldn't have possibly been a Polish peasant girl masquerading as a "high class" royal grand duchess ::)

Mr Schweitzer, how many times did you meet Mrs Manahan and for how long?

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Richard Schweitzer, Husband of Marina Botkin: General Q & A
« Reply #191 on: October 30, 2007, 12:52:56 PM »
Being a good actress for a day is one  thing,  playing the part  from 1920 to the 1980s  is  an awful  long time. And,  it appears that AA  never provided  Richard Schweitzer with  a single moment which caused him to doubt AA.
 

What really sealed it from him, do you think? Was it when she ran around naked in public after stepping and killing a parakeet? Or perhaps it was while she lived in dirt and squalor with hundreds of cats (incinerating the dead ones in her fireplace)? Or maybe it was the way she dressed and spoke (that German accent must have been what did it)? What else may have tipped Mr Schweitzer off that Mrs Manahan was a genuine grand duchess?

* Not to imply that a grand duchess wouldn't be capable of all these things mentioned above, of course she could be, but what  exactly was it that made AA "not give Mr Schweitzer a moment's doubt" about her being one?
« Last Edit: October 30, 2007, 12:57:01 PM by Helen_A »

Offline Eddie_uk

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Re: Richard Schweitzer, Husband of Marina Botkin: General Q & A
« Reply #192 on: October 30, 2007, 12:56:52 PM »
Well with all due respect perhaps Richard is not a very good judge of character? Or maybe he's from poor origins himself and not sharp enought to spot a fake Grand Duchess??
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Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Richard Schweitzer, Husband of Marina Botkin: General Q & A
« Reply #193 on: October 30, 2007, 12:58:12 PM »
Or maybe he's from poor origins himself

OUCH... :-)

Offline Annie

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Re: Richard Schweitzer, Husband of Marina Botkin: General Q & A
« Reply #194 on: October 30, 2007, 01:07:32 PM »
I'm really having a hard time with this 'true lady of breeding' thing. When exactly did she behave this way? She certainly didn't in the videos we see of her in old age, once she lived in the US. Just how regal was she in the hospital in 1925, emaciated from TB, when Olga first met her that, according to Schweitzer, made her certain she was of the same 'class' she had been brought up in? Did Olga even say this or is it just an assumption? I have never seen such a thing said by Olga.

Or was she this classy lady when, as Helen mentioned, she went on her naked on the roof tirade, after stomping the bird and hitting several people with sticks that got her hauled to the looney bin upstate? (that was because of the trauma of 'Ekaterinburg', right?) Did anyone actually accept her as a lady of breeding except maybe those at Oyster Bay? The Americans she was wined and dined among in NYC (Annie Jennings and friends) wouldn't have known anything about European royalty and perhaps this is why they were fooled (or maybe they were simply told she was AN and nobody doubted it since they hadn't known the real one anyway??)

By the time Mr. Schweitzer met her, she surely wasn't very regal. I do wonder what it was that gave him this impression, or did it come from the accounts of others, and who were those others?