Author Topic: The memorial cross at the AP  (Read 20195 times)

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Offline Sarushka

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Re: The memorial cross at the AP
« Reply #30 on: October 15, 2007, 11:30:45 PM »
That is exactly it, Dmitry.   The thing looks like roadside memroial to car accident victims.  Why not add plush toys and plastic flowers? And what does "Faberge taste" have to do with anything?  The AP is simply a museum, and a pretty lousy one at that. The family did not die there, any "memorial" is inappropriate, in my opinion. More fitting would be a plaque INSIDE the rooms they lived in, marking their residence. Cheap sentimentality is just tacky.

Put that way, I begin to see your point. Initially, the outright disdain for this little ornament puzzled me -- I would not have expected something of this nature to evoke such strong reactions.

Offline ChristineM

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Re: The memorial cross at the AP
« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2007, 09:49:08 AM »
What a horrible hornet's nest has been created out of a simple question.

I can assure you there will never be a plaque erected inside the Alexander Palace.   Its future is still in doubt.   There has been a recent change, however this information is private and privileged.   Any proposed restoration is strongly in favour of the restitution of the Quarenghi interiors.   Now, as then, the 'cognescenti' think that Nicholas and Alexandra's private rooms lacked taste.   You know, a bit like the attitude to be found here towards the dear little memorial set up by some innocent, kind hearted, thoughtful and probably very poor individual.

dmitri - I do take exception to your tone.   Bob Atchison and myself have been travelling to Tsarskoe Selo and to the Alexander Palace in particular for many years.   Both of us have spent many thousands of our own pounds in our quest to heighten awareness and try to facilitate agreements to have something done to save the palace.   I hasten to add, the thousands of pounds to which I refer do not include business class travel and weeks spent in five star hotels.   I pay rent and live in a 'Kruschev' flat in Pushkin because that's the way we prefer to do things.   However, prior to this I was fortunate to stay in (phonetically) Baza Odicha - a 'rest home' in the Catherine Palace where I had to transfer pails of water from the boiler in order to have a 'communal' shower each day.   Nonetheless I loved it and couldn't believe my luck to waken each morning to see Charles Cameron's Chinese Village not far from my bedroom window.   Worth 1,000 five star hotels in my opinion.  I can confirm Viv's experience, because I know there is deliberate positive discrimination against the Alexander Palace in favour of the Catherine Palace.

Margarita - I have never left flowers at the monument (although I have contributed and organised wreaths to be laid there on behalf of the Alexander Palace Association on the anniversary of the murders).   I am surprised you like it.   I would have thought you were only too familiar with Soviet-style architecture.   I have been privileged to carry the icon of the Holy Passion Bearer Nicholas II in procession to the memorial a number of times on the anniversary of the massacre of the family and their servants.   Most memorably on the day of the family's reburial in the chapel of the Cathedral of Sts Peter and Paul.   In fact we were invited to the actual burial service which had originally been planned to take place in the Feodorovsky Sobor, but I prefered to be at the last Imperial Family's spiritual home.   I also was extremely fortunate in being present when Bishop Vassili planted a sapling oak to replace one of the three which are missing.

Two things really sadden me in the behaviour of posters on this thread.   Firstly, nobody has even mentioned the brave man who gave his life in his endeavour to honour his commitment to the memory of the last Tsar of Russia.   Nobody has even thought about his young widow and her children.   SHAME.   Nobody has considered Viv Rosendhal's feelings.   She is a new member of the Forum.   Who could blame her if she does not return?   If any of you had received the kind of treatment that some posters here have directed towards her posts, would you still be posting?   Somehow I doubt it.

All this over a simple memorial cross - does it matter if its tasteless - surely its the thought that counts.

tsaria

 

Offline ChristineM

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Re: The memorial cross at the AP
« Reply #32 on: October 16, 2007, 10:07:57 AM »
...and I have just checked.   There are 11 'Users' and 172 'Guests'.   Witnessing some of what has been written above, how many of those 'Guests' do you think will feel inclined to become 'Users'?

tsaria

Robert_Hall

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Re: The memorial cross at the AP
« Reply #33 on: October 16, 2007, 11:36:44 AM »
Tsaria, since you seem to be the only one who knows anything about the young man who died, un-related to his memorial  why do you not tell us more about the fellow? You have no right to shame anyone.
 As your information is "private and privileged" I suppose we must wait for you to reveal all at some future date?  And, if you chose to live in a "baza Odicha' [or whatever that is] that is your choice is it not? I prefer to stay in hotels that have showers and baths where I need not  tote buckets of water.  I am no pretend peasant.
 BTW, that plastic memorial was not cheap, I assure you. No one went hungry providing it.
 

Offline ChristineM

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Re: The memorial cross at the AP
« Reply #34 on: October 16, 2007, 12:44:20 PM »
Dear Robert, you and I have had to agree to disagree over the years, but this really is quite unworthy of you because, despite these differences, I have always considered you a gentleman.

What information do you require on the man?  Is it not sufficient to know it happened?   And what about Viv Rosendhal?   Does it not matter about her feelings on a matter which she innocently raised and ended up be unceremoniously attacked?

You are right, you probably will find out about the Alexander Palace through time.   I would not even have raised the subject had dmitri, for some reason, been so certain others are less well informed than himself.   I trust you can see the context.   I set it out quite deliberately - responding to the points raised.

The reason I brought up Pushkin-style living had nothing to do with any desire to wear a 'hair shirt'.   I enjoy the opportunity when it avails itself in 1st class luxury.   It was because I have found myself frequently, over the years, having to respond to people who think that those who 'do' charity work, use charity funds to live the life of Reilly.

Robert, how do you know the person behind the memorial cross is not going hungry in order to fund it?

What a hullabaloo over a small, albeit not to everyone's taste, memorial cross.   Why cannot it be accepted that it was done with the best of intentions - full stop.   

tsaria
« Last Edit: October 16, 2007, 12:46:16 PM by tsaria »

Robert_Hall

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Re: The memorial cross at the AP
« Reply #35 on: October 16, 2007, 01:02:41 PM »
Tsaria, I will go along and agree that the memoroial cross is just someone's personal statement. Not to everyone's taste.  I know what those things cost, here, in California and they are not as cheap as they look. They pop up at every highway accident and street-gang shooting. I have even seen a couple on the road to Pushkin. They last for a while then are gone.
 I meant no dis-respect to Viv. She posted a picture and I commented on it, as did others.
 You are correct, in that this is a non-issue.
 However, I am very much in favour of the Quarenghi restoration.  I see no valid point in re-creating the rooms as N&A had them. A waste of valuable resources and talent.  In MY opinion.  Nicholas' library is enough from that era [and beautiful, I might add].
 As for memorials, well, they have them- where they died and where they are buried.  As well as just about every Russian Orthodox church around the world.

helenazar

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Re: The memorial cross at the AP
« Reply #36 on: October 16, 2007, 01:10:32 PM »
What a hullabaloo over a small, albeit not to everyone's taste, memorial cross.   Why cannot it be accepted that it was done with the best of intentions - full stop.   

I doubt that anyone set out to purposely pick out the tackiest memorial and set it up in front of the AP, so I believe that it was done with the best of intentions. And yes, we are making too much of it...

Offline Forum Admin

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Re: The memorial cross at the AP
« Reply #37 on: October 16, 2007, 01:15:51 PM »
I must concur with Tsaria on this. The monument may not be what some of us would have chosen, nor be what we might wish to see. HOWEVER, someone out there CARED enough to do this. 

CAN THE SAME BE SAID FOR THOSE WHO CAST ASPERSIONS ABOUT IT? What monuments to the IF have YOU paid for? What funds for restoration of the AP have YOU donated?

At least the person responsible DID something. We  must respect that, and admire the thought, if not the monument itself.  Alexandra herself was the butt of horrible comments about her Jungendstil design. Some like it (Bob and I, f or example) others hate it (like Robert)...It doesn't matter what WE think, it matters what the person who placed the monument thought...

I wish I had read this thread earlier before it got to this point...I only saw the first posting about it, and never DREAMED the follow up comments were so rude.

Arleen_Ristau

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Re: The memorial cross at the AP
« Reply #38 on: October 16, 2007, 02:06:10 PM »
I am ashamed period!  What a lot of meanspirited people.....

Arleen

helenazar

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Re: The memorial cross at the AP
« Reply #39 on: October 16, 2007, 02:34:51 PM »
I am ashamed period!  What a lot of meanspirited people.....

Arleen

Oh stop it, Arleen! You weren't even participating in this discussion and only came here to scold. Everyone already got the point without you, I'm sure, so if you have nothing to add to this discussion one way or another and only want to lecture, then it would be better if you add nothing at all.

Offline BobAtchison

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Re: The memorial cross at the AP
« Reply #40 on: October 16, 2007, 02:44:24 PM »
This reminds me of the small ikons and candles that used to be left on the steps of the Imperial entrance ten - twenty years ago.  I also used to see similar memorials in the forest amid the ruins of the Nizhni Dvoretz.  In Yekaterinburg their were candles and other things near the mineshaft in 1993.  At the burial site and also at site of the Ipatiev House there used to be wooden crosses - but vandals destroyed them so they put up crude steel ones to replace them.  I  remember thinking how horrible they looked.  Then let us think how horrible the Feodorovski Sobor looked for many year crude, blackened and bombed out - and yet here in this ugliness were the ikons people brought, the crude repairs that had been made - and some garish ikons. Well, look at the sentiment behind these things - the common people who did them.  Look how beautiful flowers emerge from wrinkled, ugly seeds.

This cross is another sign of someone's sincere feelings, yes it is an ugly dukling, but I am sure someday there will be a more beautiful one - and more monuments around the palace to people like Kuchumov and Miloslavich (who gave his life for the AP) which will come one day.

Bob

Offline BobAtchison

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Re: The memorial cross at the AP
« Reply #41 on: October 16, 2007, 02:48:27 PM »
Helen:

That was not nice to say to Arleen...

Bob

helenazar

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Re: The memorial cross at the AP
« Reply #42 on: October 16, 2007, 02:52:35 PM »
Helen:

That was not nice to say to Arleen...

Bob

Yes, I know, but I am very tired of some people just coming into discussions to lecture with nothing else to add. If they are so offended by something that's being said, then they shouldn't read it... Just coming in to say how horrible everyone is with the self-righteous attitude is not very nice either...

Offline Forum Admin

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Re: The memorial cross at the AP
« Reply #43 on: October 16, 2007, 03:56:56 PM »
Helen,

Such comments are best left to PM, if they "must " be said at all. There was no reason to publicy call out Arleen, it really could have been said privately.

Thanks.
FA

helenazar

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Re: The memorial cross at the AP
« Reply #44 on: October 16, 2007, 04:01:26 PM »
Helen,

Such comments are best left to PM, if they "must " be said at all. There was no reason to publicy call out Arleen, it really could have been said privately.

Thanks.
FA


This is true, in which case Arleen should have told us all how ashamed she is of us and how awful we are via PM too. Anyway, sorry for the disruption.