Author Topic: Prince William and Kate Middleton  (Read 241914 times)

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CHRISinUSA

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Re: Prince William and Kate Middleton
« Reply #480 on: January 27, 2011, 03:46:34 PM »
Yes, unless she is specifically created a Princess in her own right by the Queen. Recent example is HRH Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester, who was simply HRH the Duchess of Gloucester in her husband's lifetime, but was then created a princess.   William's wife will be either HRH Princess William, or HRH the Duchess of X. I am fed up with 'Princess Diana'! 

Kalafrana, I also share your (and others) irritation with people making repeated errors with regard to royal titles!  It is in that spirit that I must unfortunately also correct you on a technicality.

The late HRH Duchess of Gloucester was not created a princess after her husband's death.  That would have required Letters Patent from the Queen, which for whatever reason were never issued.  Instead, Alice was given special permission as a courtesy from her niece, The Queen, to use the title and style HRH Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester instead of HRH The Dowager Duchess of Gloucester.  She remained legally HRH The Princess William, Dowager Duchess of Gloucester, etc.  It was the same case as the Wessex' children, who remain legally Princes and Princesses with the style of HRH regardless of how they are styled in daily use.

CHRISinUSA

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Re: Prince William and Kate Middleton
« Reply #481 on: January 27, 2011, 03:56:53 PM »
I just realized how often I've posted on this same topic of incorrect titles over the years.  It makes me wonder if perhaps the royals should simply give up trying to retain the "correct British forms" and move to the continental royal approach.  In Sweden, Denmark, Belgium, etc., they do not draw a title distinction between a monarch's son and the wife of a monarch's son - they are both Prince / Princess in their own right.  The media and public cannot seem to grasp the correct forms anymore - so maybe the time has come to change.

Reminds me of how the present Earl Spencer finally abandoned the traditional pronunciation of Althorp House and Estate, mostly because everyone pronounced it Al-thorpe instead of the original All-thrup.

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Prince William and Kate Middleton
« Reply #482 on: January 27, 2011, 04:58:04 PM »
Calling someone by their correct name and title does not necessarily mean nitpicking.  Isn't it just getting it right?

I would argue that there are different levels of formality: When discussing her latest dress choice, it seems OK to me for the tabloids to refer to her as Princess Kate. While formal announcements should of course refer to HRH Princess William of Wales. The whole point of courtesy titles is twofold: To provide a more practical way to refer to or adress somebody and to give them more than what their technically entitled to. Hence we refer to Diana's nephew as Viscount Althorp instead of The Honourable Louis Frederick John Spencer.

Reminds me of how the present Earl Spencer finally abandoned the traditional pronunciation of Althorp House and Estate, mostly because everyone pronounced it Al-thorpe instead of the original All-thrup.
Altrup
Strange man who didn't change the spelling instead. There is a reason why York isn't spelled Eboracum, Eoforwic or Jórvík these days.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 05:03:38 PM by Фёдор Петрович »

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Prince William and Kate Middleton
« Reply #483 on: January 28, 2011, 04:15:56 AM »
'The late HRH Duchess of Gloucester was not created a princess after her husband's death.  That would have required Letters Patent from the Queen, which for whatever reason were never issued.  Instead, Alice was given special permission as a courtesy from her niece, The Queen, to use the title and style HRH Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester instead of HRH The Dowager Duchess of Gloucester.  She remained legally HRH The Princess William, Dowager Duchess of Gloucester, etc.'

Chris

Actually the late Duchess must have been HRH Princess Henry. Prince William of Gloucester was her elder son, who was killed in a flying accident in 1972.

Ann

CHRISinUSA

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Re: Prince William and Kate Middleton
« Reply #484 on: January 28, 2011, 08:41:02 AM »
Oops, of course you are correct.  Henry, not William. 

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Prince William and Kate Middleton
« Reply #485 on: January 28, 2011, 09:21:52 AM »
Not to worry. Just nitpicking.

Ann

CHRISinUSA

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Re: Prince William and Kate Middleton
« Reply #486 on: January 28, 2011, 09:23:49 AM »
Calling someone by their correct name and title does not necessarily mean nitpicking.  Isn't it just getting it right?

I would argue that there are different levels of formality: When discussing her latest dress choice, it seems OK to me for the tabloids to refer to her as Princess Kate. While formal announcements should of course refer to HRH Princess William of Wales. The whole point of courtesy titles is twofold: To provide a more practical way to refer to or adress somebody and to give them more than what their technically entitled to. Hence we refer to Diana's nephew as Viscount Althorp instead of The Honourable Louis Frederick John Spencer.

I see your point - although I adopt a different argument.  If there is going to be a protocol for titles and styles in place, it should be used in all cases.  If you are going to pick and choose from multiple forms depending on the situation, that waters down the original purpose and it becomes worthless in my opinion.

Which brings us back to the original purpose.  Back when Europe's powers were truly governed by royalty and aristocracy, it was essential to be able to clearly identify a person's rank and position in society (which was defined by their paternal bloodline and - for married women - also their husband's bloodline).  That spawned a complex system of titles, styles and forms of address which had to be strictly adhered to in matters of court functions, government, international relations, selection of spouses, society, etc.  It was even more complex because there may be different sets of rules in different countries.  

The differences between Imperial Highness, Royal Highness, Highness or Serene Highness told you who took precedence over whom.  The difference between The Princess Jane, Princess Jane, Princess William, or Jane Princess of X told you immediately if she was a monarch's daughter, monarch's granddaughter, the wife of a monarch's son or grandson, or a widow / ex-wife.  You didn't have to ask - the form told you everything you needed to know (assuming you were properly educated on the topic, which further created social hierarchy).

Today that whole premise doesn't exist anymore.  Fewer royal houses are in power, and they are much smaller.  Monarchs reign but do not rule, nobles do not govern by hereditary right, and royal marriages don't impact diplomatic relations.  There also aren't thousands of extended royal family members from 100+ monarchist countries constantly traveling around Europe who have to be officially received by the host government or courts, invited to the right functions, etc.  So the need for everyone to be able to immediately distinguish between a king's daughter, granddaughter, spouse, widow, etc. merely by hearing a title spoken or reading it on a piece of paper is far less important today.  And getting it wrong might still be frowned upon, but wouldn't potentially end someone's career or cause diplomatic rifts.  

So rather than trying to cling to a system that was put in place to meet the real needs of the 16th - 19th centuries, it probably makes sense to simplify it to match 21st century needs.  

Last point - your comment about the late Princess of Wales' nephew is a perfect example.  Following the rules, the honorific style "Honourable" is never spoken aloud.  It is always written on envelopes (where it is usually abbreviated to The Hon) and written formally elsewhere.  In speech, The Honourable John Smith is referred to simply as Mr John Smith, and The Honourable Viscount Althorp is referred to simply as Viscount Althorp.  


Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Prince William and Kate Middleton
« Reply #487 on: January 28, 2011, 12:34:31 PM »
I have the feeling that, in the US at least, if William is made a Duke before/on the wedding day she will be referred to as "Kate, Duchess of ___________ ".
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Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Prince William and Kate Middleton
« Reply #488 on: January 28, 2011, 12:46:15 PM »
I have the feeling that, in the US at least, if William is made a Duke before/on the wedding day she will be referred to as "Kate, Duchess of ___________ ".

No doubt she will be "Duchess Kate" to those barbaric tabloids which still are stuck in the Middle Ages! :-)
« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 12:50:31 PM by Фёдор Петрович »

Selencia

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Re: Prince William and Kate Middleton
« Reply #489 on: January 29, 2011, 02:40:22 AM »
HaHa
Prince William Windsor The Duke of Windsor.
Now that's just cruel.

Offline Grace

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Re: Prince William and Kate Middleton
« Reply #490 on: January 29, 2011, 04:47:44 AM »
Stupid, I would call it.  :)

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: Prince William and Kate Middleton
« Reply #491 on: January 29, 2011, 05:03:25 AM »
It's funny how both princess and duchess are considered appropriate terms of endearment to a female (being) in English (although I do realize that "duchess" implies a very pampered female), whereas calling a male "my prince" and "my duke" is not exacty interchangeable! And the lower titles: "My marchioness, my countess, my baroness" - now that's outright kinky!

« Last Edit: January 29, 2011, 05:05:05 AM by Фёдор Петрович »

Offline mcdnab

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Re: Prince William and Kate Middleton
« Reply #492 on: February 01, 2011, 05:01:33 AM »
Actually it wouldn't be that incorrect lol - A Queen consort is usually just referred to as HM The Queen - in widowhood she is usually Queen (Forename) to distinguish her from the current Queen Consort or Regnant. So during the Queen Mother's widowhood the Household referred to her as Queen Elizabeth and the current monarch was correctly The Queen. However during the reign it is fairly common for the Queen's forename to be used in conversation or in print.


I wonder, when Katherine becomes queen, will people nitpick about how it presumably is technically incorrect to refer to her as Queen Katherine instead of The Queen?

Offline Lucien

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HRH Prince William and Miss Catherine Middleton
« Reply #493 on: February 06, 2011, 12:19:16 PM »
Je Maintiendrai

Offline Lucien

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Je Maintiendrai