Author Topic: Murder or execution?  (Read 51595 times)

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Offline Sarushka

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Re: Murder or execution?
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2008, 03:28:29 PM »
IMO, a death sentence carried out without trial or due process of law is murder.

Offline nena

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Re: Murder or execution?
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2008, 04:20:28 PM »
It was murder, for me. In Yurovsky's eyes, it was execution.
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historyfan

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Re: Murder or execution?
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2008, 08:42:14 PM »
What "law" were they adhering to at the time??  Seems to me there wasn't any.  The law was whatever whoever was in charge that day, decided it would be.

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Re: Murder or execution?
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2008, 08:57:43 PM »
This discussion is really one of "Monday Morning Quarterback:"  It depends totally on one's point of view.  "If" one were a member of the Ural Soviet in 1918, you had not second thought about an answer.  If one is a 21st century fan of the Romanovs, you have a polar opposite opinion.  While I believe that there was no moral or legal grounds whatsoever to kill any of the Imperial Family, the act was sanctioned and approved by the reigning government at the time. It was a time of Civil War, and resulting lawlessness.

The fact remains, they were killed, defining the term to murder or execution means what? really, today?? They were killed, brutally, and painfully in a basement and their remains left to rot undiscovered for decades. What matter is the term murder or execution really??

my two kopecks worth

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Offline Romanov_fan

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Re: Murder or execution?
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2008, 10:12:24 PM »
That is true- but sometimes people assign much power to words. Also, if a death carried out without a trial is murder, what about a death carried out after a trial that is basically rigged to end in death? Legally, that is truly an execution, but morally is that an execution, or is that murder? Think of the French Royal family for example- they got trials but Marie Antoinette's trial was rigged, predetermined to end in death, if I remember correctly. If Nicholas had gotten a trial, but it was basically a face saving device to make it look legal and was basically rigged to end in death, would that be anymore more fair than what actually happened to him, just because he got a trial, even it wasn't fair?

Halinka

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Re: Murder or execution?
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2008, 10:28:54 AM »
It was murder, for me. In Yurovsky's eyes, it was execution.


 I think that's the best way to put it.

Offline Sarushka

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Re: Murder or execution?
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2008, 12:50:22 PM »
That is true- but sometimes people assign much power to words. Also, if a death carried out without a trial is murder, what about a death carried out after a trial that is basically rigged to end in death? Legally, that is truly an execution, but morally is that an execution, or is that murder? Think of the French Royal family for example- they got trials but Marie Antoinette's trial was rigged, predetermined to end in death, if I remember correctly. If Nicholas had gotten a trial, but it was basically a face saving device to make it look legal and was basically rigged to end in death, would that be anymore more fair than what actually happened to him, just because he got a trial, even it wasn't fair?

You've got a point there.

Romanov_Fan19

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Re: Murder or execution?
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2008, 01:50:27 PM »
It was Murder Cold Blooded Murder!

Hakkon

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Re: Murder or execution?
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2008, 10:52:07 AM »
To the eyes of the soviets at that time, it was an execution, however, I even think that the cause of Nicholas II and the romanov entourage's death is simple:
to prevent from being rescued by the whites.

and therefore, this action is nothing but an execution according to the will of the command without any due process of law being made nor even a trial to conduct against the emperor; and another is that why is the family involved in the execution? That cause can be stated in soviet idea is to liquidate the imperial family now being arrested, in other words: A MURDER.

Mexjames

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Re: Murder or execution?
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2008, 04:58:25 PM »
I think it was cold blooded murder.  It is my understanding that an execution would have resulted from a trial, which never took place.  The little bald man with the ridiculous beard decided this.  If you read what he wrote, he was all for the "revolution" and everything he did was based around that imprecise concept, which he defined.  In the name of the "revolution", it was justified to kill, maim, steal, rape, etc.

He had absolutely nothing to lose by having the IF killed, and everything to gain. With the I.F. killed in Yekaterinburg and G.D. Michael killed in Alapayevsk, the Whites had no "raison d'etre" and eventually lost.  The Romanovs took several years to regroup, at which time it was too late to rebuild the Empire. 

In the meantime, the bald man and his cronies seized power, consolidated their rogue regime and the rest is history.

The main characters of this drama, had terrible deaths all of them.  The little bald man must have suffered a lot before he died; his buddy who fled to Mexico found his death in the hands of an assassin, who chopped his brains out of his skull.  The bald man's successor, as bloody as the German dictator, spent most of his years in power in a paranoid state and I venture to say he didn't die peacefully, haunted by the ghosts of all those he killed. 

All the above are not coincidences.  The Emperor might not have been a good ruler, but he deserved a fair trial.  The revolutionary state that replaced the Empire also failed miserably in this and many other aspects, and fortunately it is now part of history.


Hakkon

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Re: Murder or execution?
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2008, 11:29:12 PM »
As for me, that execution by will is the result of their hatred towards the tsar and the family. But then, despite that the bolsheviks underestimated them, they even thanked some of them for their acts related to russia. Anyway, why Stalin admired Tsar Ivan the terrible, Alexander Nevsky and Peter the Great? Not because they contribute to the russian state, but to appease the russian nationalists whose heart is in the romanovs!

Anyway,
they (the bolsheviks) simply speak their subjective sentiment, written in a sheet of paper, proclaimed their fate byt he commissar without any due process then shot by the revolver. Other deposed leaders may have stood trial and executed for their crimes, but they didnt include the uninvolved members of the family, or (in case of pu'yi of china) given reeducation and rehabilitation to become "one of them".

Offline Olga Maria

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Re: Murder or execution?
« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2008, 01:44:25 AM »
I pity how they all got killed. They were all shot and then struck with bayonets to eventually finish their lives. All died in torment seeing all around them were blood and their struggling beloved ones. For this case, I believe it's a murder which took place.

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Mexjames

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Re: Murder or execution?
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2008, 09:08:00 AM »
As for me, that execution by will is the result of their hatred towards the tsar and the family. But then, despite that the bolsheviks underestimated them, they even thanked some of them for their acts related to russia. Anyway, why Stalin admired Tsar Ivan the terrible, Alexander Nevsky and Peter the Great? Not because they contribute to the russian state, but to appease the russian nationalists whose heart is in the romanovs!

Anyway, they (the bolsheviks) simply speak their subjective sentiment, written in a sheet of paper, proclaimed their fate byt he commissar without any due process then shot by the revolver. Other deposed leaders may have stood trial and executed for their crimes, but they didnt include the uninvolved members of the family, or (in case of pu'yi of china) given reeducation and rehabilitation to become "one of them".

I agree with you, it was just hatred and ignorance on the executioners, but the little bearded bald man, Lenin or Lensky or whatever the name was, was a great  strategist and knew that if any of the IF survived, he would be in danger of being toppled. 

As for Stalin, he used Alexander Nevsky and Peter the Great to stir nationalistic feelings during WWII.  Otherwise Russians might have allied with the Nazis for the sole purpose of deposing communism (without a capital "C").  After the war, it was business as usual again with the commies.  Over their terrible history, communists tried to obliterate as much of the imperial past as possible.

That is why I consider that the IF were murdered in cold blood.  The commies never intended to judge any of them, much less to let the Grand Duchesses and the Heir free.  A fair trial might have concluded that the Emperor was incompetent, not to mention the Empress, and that would have hardly ended in a death penalty of either or both of them, while their children would have had to be acquitted as they had no say in any government affair. 

This was cold blooded murder, and as there is justice in this world, the minds behind it had terrible deaths as well.

Offline LadyTudorRose

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Re: Murder or execution?
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2009, 06:39:35 PM »
I'm unsure whether it would be consider murder under the legal system or revolutionary government, but it certainly wasn't an execution. How can you be executed if you haven't been convicted of, or even charged with, a crime?

RomanovsFan4Ever

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Re: Murder or execution?
« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2009, 05:47:48 PM »
It was murder, for me. In Yurovsky's eyes, it was execution.

Well said nena!