Author Topic: Anna Anderson Discussion of Evidence  (Read 103271 times)

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Offline Annie

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Re: Anna Anderson Discussion of Evidence
« Reply #330 on: November 07, 2007, 07:19:14 PM »
Just because she didn't write "I am distraught and this has made me cry" doesn't mean she didn't feel that way. She is clearly bothered, for herself and her mother. Also, this was before Marie F. died, so it was before the vicious attacks by AA supporters. It was also before several decades of trials and accusations of 'abandonment'. So if she was already bothered by it this early it does look like the emotional stress and pain would have gotten much worse over the years as the case dragged on and on throughout her life. I feel so sorry for her having to suffer so long, and dying without it ever being resolved and her name being cleared.

Another interesting thing about this letter is what she said about Andre'. Obviously she doesn't accept for a second that he may really think AA was AN, or that AA might possibly be AN, but seems to say that since he couldn't believe it and he had to be up to something. I have always thought that might be it long before I ever saw this letter. As a member of the Vladimirovichi line, he would have been(besides his brothers) the last person to want a real heir of "Nicky" to show up alive. Also as a member of that branch of Romanovs, he wouldn't have known the real AN anyway, since there was estrangement between his family and the IF, and because he was dating/married to Nicky's old mistress. What a doubly awkward guest he'd have made. For these two reasons, I doubt he ever had enough contact with the real AN to judge any claimant one way or the other. Of course after Gleb's letter, he dropped his support for the AA camp anyway. We will never know what his original intentions and ulterior motives on the case were, but I, like Olga, do not believe he ever believed AA to be AN.

Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Anna Anderson Discussion of Evidence
« Reply #331 on: November 07, 2007, 08:06:23 PM »
Just because she didn't write "I am distraught and this has made me cry" doesn't mean she didn't feel that way. She is clearly bothered, for herself and her mother. Also, this was before Marie F. died, so it was before the vicious attacks by AA supporters. It was also before several decades of trials and accusations of 'abandonment'. So if she was already bothered by it this early it does look like the emotional stress and pain would have gotten much worse over the years as the case dragged on and on throughout her life. I feel so sorry for her having to suffer so long, and dying without it ever being resolved and her name being cleared.

Would you mind documenting any "vicious" attacks on Olga between 1928 (and then I think Gleb took the shot at Ksenia) and her death?  And because she didn't write "I am distraught and this made me cry", you cannot write that she was distraught and it made her cry. I have never said she wasn't "bothered", whatever that means.

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Another interesting thing about this letter is what she said about Andre'. Obviously she doesn't accept for a second that he may really think AA was AN, or that AA might possibly be AN, but seems to say that since he couldn't believe it and he had to be up to something. I have always thought that might be it long before I ever saw this letter. As a member of the Vladimirovichi line, he would have been(besides his brothers) the last person to want a real heir of "Nicky" to show up alive. Also as a member of that branch of Romanovs, he wouldn't have known the real AN anyway, since there was estrangement between his family and the IF, and because he was dating/married to Nicky's old mistress. What a doubly awkward guest he'd have made. For these two reasons, I doubt he ever had enough contact with the real AN to judge any claimant one way or the other. Of course after Gleb's letter, he dropped his support for the AA camp anyway. We will never know what his original intentions and ulterior motives on the case were, but I, like Olga, do not believe he ever believed AA to be AN.


I'm sure that wherever she is, Olga appreciates the show of solidarity. Indeed, she may even understand it, if Olga was unable to conceive that Andrei might have recognized the woman because he actually, you know, thought he recognized her. You think that everyone who did was a liar or a con artist. Maybe you're channeling Olga, Annie!

Wow. Spooky.
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Offline Annie

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Re: Anna Anderson Discussion of Evidence
« Reply #332 on: November 07, 2007, 09:43:35 PM »

Would you mind documenting any "vicious" attacks on Olga between 1928 (and then I think Gleb took the shot at Ksenia) and her death?

Here is the letter from Gleb as documented in Massie's book.

Your Imperial Highness!

Twenty four hours did not pass after the death of your mother when you hastened to take another step in the conspiracy against your niece...Before the wrong which Your Imperial Highness is committing, even the gruesome murder of the Emperor, his family and my father by the Bolsheviks pales! It is easier to understand a crime committed by a gang of crazed and drunken savages than the calm, systematic, endless persecution of one of your own family, the Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicholaevna, whose only fault is that, being the only rightful heir to the late Emperor, she stands in the way of her greedy and unscrupuous relatives.


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Andrei might have recognized the woman because he actually, you know, thought he recognized her.

As I stated before, Andre' wouldn't have been a judge of her, since he didn't know her and wasn't exposed to her due to the estrangement of the Vladimirovichi and because he was married to Nicky's old mistress, he was hardly hanging around the palace getting to know her. Any visits he did make wouldn't have included the kids anyway. No, I don't believe he knew her well enough to recognize her or not, and apparently Olga was certain he couldn't have and that's why she thought he was up to something, 'against us' as she says.

In Kurth's book, p. 152, Andre is quoted as saying: "The number of people who have been drawn into this work is very large, and among them such strict discipline is apparent as was never present in Russian circles.” What does he mean by this? What did he mean by ‘discipline? Was this a ‘code of silence’ that those involved in the charade would never speak of it? What did it mean that he distinguished the group from ‘purely Russian circles’, that there were others involved who were not Russians?  His words do prove at least by 1927, the group involved with AA was 'very large.'  A lot can be read into this, nothing ever known for sure except that after the above letter he distanced himself from AA forever.

Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Anna Anderson Discussion of Evidence
« Reply #333 on: November 08, 2007, 07:20:52 AM »
Nonsense. Our strength is as the strength of ten because we North Carolinians are pure of heart, Alexis. And smart. Take notes and be quiet. The adults are now talking.

Annie,

The "vicious" letter from Gleb was addressed to Ksenia, not Olga, and while it is strongly worded, Massie refers to it as "stinging", which seems a more apt descriptor to me. Your speculations about Andrei are just that, speculations, and while based upon your own "research", which I am sure has been thorough, unsupported. On page 183 of the Massie book (The Romanovs: The Final Chapter), Massie also documents Andrew as writing to Tatiana Botkin after the letter to Ksenia was published: "All is lost. Does he realize what he has done? He has completely ruined everything."

"Grand Duke Andrew also remarked that the case was beginning to take on the aspect of an intrigue for the Tsar's fortune," Tatiana Botkin wrote. "This profoundly disgusted the grand duke and he did not further wish to involve his name in it."

But he did not withdraw his recognition of Anderson as Anastasia.

In fact, Gleb's letter was a fatal blow to Anderson's chances for meeting more members of the immediate family. I doubt that it "hurt" them, whatever that means, but it was definitely an act of lese-majeste, and as an attempt to flush the family into the controversy on the public stage, a horrible miscalculation.  Most of them closed ranks and moved on, distancing themselves from the case.

In any event, I agree with you that Andrew's recognition was not particularly determinative --- any more than Olga's was. The "recognitions" of Anna Anderson as Anastasia OR Franziska Schanzkowska are not evidence, since each can (and has) been challenged by opponents. Either they are con artists --- Maria Rasputin, Doris Wingender --- or they are not (Olga Alexandrovna, Andrew Vladimirovich). Others are useless as "evidence" simply because they never knew the real girl. You support Olga's failure to recognize her because you agree with it, Annie, not because you are in a position to know. And the DNA evidence supports your position. But . . .  from the beginning of my time on this forum, I have tried to maintain to either "side" that recognition/lack of recognition from people who knew both women (i.e. Anderson and Anastasia) does not mean that the person was lying. It means that he/she made a mistake.

If you feel yourself unable to sift through evidence and testimonies without leaping to speculative conclusions, might I suggest that you stop trying?

No, I didn't think so.

Simon






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Alixz

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Re: Anna Anderson Discussion of Evidence
« Reply #334 on: November 08, 2007, 08:12:54 AM »

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In Kurth's book, p. 152, Andre is quoted as saying: "The number of people who have been drawn into this work is very large, and among them such strict discipline is apparent as was never present in Russian circles.”[/i] What does he mean by this? What did he mean by ‘discipline? Was this a ‘code of silence’ that those involved in the charade would never speak of it? What did it mean that he distinguished the group from ‘purely Russian circles’, that there were others involved who were not Russians?  His words do prove at least by 1927, the group involved with AA was 'very large.'  A lot can be read into this, nothing ever known for sure except that after the above letter he distanced himself from AA forever.

I don't know why the rest of this is in the quote purple background color




What I  think this means is that the Russian Imperial family was not known for supporting each other in their endeavors.  Andre is surprised that this event has brought so many together for one cause.  Of course there were other non Russians involved.  We know that from Claire Peuthert through the German journalist (I can't remember her name just now) who took her into her home and found her other places to stay and then wrote about the whole thing.

And here, I see how we have imputed the motive of "greed" onto Gleb.  Sorry Mr. Schweitzer.  You have always said that we have imputed our motives onto Gleb because of how we view him, but I believe that Gleb's letter and the mention of the Imperials being "greedy" imputes his owns motives.   In your words, we see him as greedy because in his place we would be.  That means that he saw the imperials as greedy because in their place he would be.

And it sounds as if the AA "support group" of the 1920s was a pretty close and supportive group with some kind of agenda.  Why else would Andrew in a letter to Tatiana Botkina, Gleb's own sister say, "All is lost.  Does he realize what he has done?  He has completely ruined everything."

« Last Edit: November 08, 2007, 08:15:07 AM by Alixz »

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Re: Anna Anderson Discussion of Evidence
« Reply #335 on: November 08, 2007, 08:17:51 AM »
So what was lost and what evidence do we have that can help us figure it out?

And just for the record, a lot of times when I (and this is only me) ask a question like the one above.  That doesn't mean that I don't want to do my own research.  It just means I want other poster's opinions.

Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Anna Anderson Discussion of Evidence
« Reply #336 on: November 08, 2007, 08:26:42 AM »
I don't think anyone objects to questions being asked, but Annie's tend to be rhetorical, as in she already has the answer in her mind before she asks it. She also is not listening to the answers, but formulating why they are wrong before she completely understands them. At least from the evidence of this thread.

If Gleb Botkin was part of a scheme to make money from the Anderson situation, he was remarkably unsuccessful. Schweitzer also stated that Gleb himself did not profit from the Grandanor enterprise, and he seems to have spent a lot of time on a financially unrewarding cause for his motives to have been mercenary.

But assuming that the reasons that some backed Anderson were mercenary, I don't think that is what Andrew refers to in the letter to Tatiana Botkin. Gleb's actions have created an insurmountable barrier between Anderson and the immediate Romanov family, since it drags them into the limelight. And royalty doesn't like to be dragged into the limelight.  What has been "lost" is any chance that Ksenia, Olga, Irene, Victoria Milford-Haven, Sandro and others will ever meet with Anderson again. Or at all. As indeed they did not.

« Last Edit: November 08, 2007, 08:28:57 AM by Louis_Charles »
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Offline dmitri

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Re: Anna Anderson Discussion of Evidence
« Reply #337 on: November 08, 2007, 08:28:26 AM »
I think what was lost was any hope of any form of support from any of the Romanovs. Gleb Botkin's grossly insulting and rude letter to Xenia hardly won him any fans. If he had in fact been wanting to help Anderson he would have never penned it at all.  

Offline dmitri

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Re: Anna Anderson Discussion of Evidence
« Reply #338 on: November 08, 2007, 08:35:13 AM »
Yes Olga knew her niece well and sadly had the misfortune of meeting the fraud Anderson/Schankowska. How very painful it must have been for her to lose two brothers, a sister-in-law, four nieces and a nephew and countless other members of her family. I wonder how many of us would have coped so well with such losses.

Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Anna Anderson Discussion of Evidence
« Reply #339 on: November 08, 2007, 08:41:39 AM »
Yes Olga knew her niece well and sadly had the misfortune of meeting the fraud Anderson/Schankowska. How very painful it must have been for her to lose two brothers, a sister-in-law, four nieces and a nephew and countless other members of her family. I wonder how many of us would have coped so well with such losses.

Fearlessly, I have no doubt. Cha-ching!
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Offline dmitri

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Re: Anna Anderson Discussion of Evidence
« Reply #340 on: November 08, 2007, 08:46:02 AM »
Sounds like you dance the Cha-Ching regularly or is that the Chim Cham from the Thunderbirds?

Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Anna Anderson Discussion of Evidence
« Reply #341 on: November 08, 2007, 08:55:49 AM »
It is the sound of the nickle dropping, young Mitya. Or pfennig. Whatever floats your boat.
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Offline dmitri

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Re: Anna Anderson Discussion of Evidence
« Reply #342 on: November 08, 2007, 08:58:00 AM »
Pfennigs haven't been used for years.

Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Anna Anderson Discussion of Evidence
« Reply #343 on: November 08, 2007, 09:00:12 AM »
Take what you can get, Dmitri, take what you can get.
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Offline dmitri

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Re: Anna Anderson Discussion of Evidence
« Reply #344 on: November 08, 2007, 09:03:17 AM »
We return you now to the topic of the thread.