Author Topic: Was Alexei also a Grand Duke?  (Read 9400 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Peterhof

  • Guest
Re: Was Alexei also a Grand Duke?
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2008, 05:43:02 PM »
This is so interesting, I knew he slapped some kids when he was a little one but I did not know this fact.  Do you have a date when this happened?

Oh for goodness sake why is it so interesting. This is hardly earth shattering information that is not unlike horseplay between young lads.

Precisely. It adds a facet to his character, which in turn furthers his humanity. IMO, it's good for many of the members here to be reminded from time to time that the IF were real, fully rounded people and not just pretty portraits on postcards.


Incidentally, I'm intrigued by your reaction to this anecdote, Belochka. Not very long ago you took the adamant position that a similar report of mischief and roughhousing on Aleksei's part was nothing short of slanderous.

My feeling is that Belochka's point of view focus on the importance of an event (please correct me if I'm wrong), a children's fight compare to, let's say, Nicholas signing his abdication.  And just to add a little bit to my initial entry, I wonder if I'd fought back if I was the kid Alexei tried to beat up. :-(

Offline Belochka

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4447
  • City of Peter stand in all your splendor - Pushkin
    • View Profile
Re: Was Alexei also a Grand Duke?
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2008, 07:27:28 PM »

Incidentally, I'm intrigued by your reaction to this anecdote, Belochka. Not very long ago you took the adamant position that a similar report of mischief and roughhousing on Aleksei's part was nothing short of slanderous.

I think I remember this, but it was something quite different. Alexei was said to punch an adult in the nose and make it bleed, and it was claimed that he did it more than once, implying that it was an almost regular occurance. IMO, that's significantly different than horseplay with another kid....

Thank you Helen for noting the important differences.

Sarushka, your intrigue is rather ill-conceived. Describing a very young child's play presents a rather different standard of behavior (as observed by a credible eyewitness) when compared to the uncorroborated accusations that were directed against Alexei in front of adults cannot be held to be similar.


Faces of Russia is now on Facebook!


http://www.searchfoundationinc.org/

Offline Forum Admin

  • Administrator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4665
  • www.alexanderpalace.org
    • View Profile
    • Alexander Palace Time Machine
Re: Was Alexei also a Grand Duke?
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2008, 10:27:04 AM »
OY, am starting to feel I never should have added an amusing anecdote about Alexei's full title to the discussion...

Having spent several years now reading and re-reading Spiridovitch, a trained observer and first hand reporter who knew Alexei well for most of his life, I just don't see Alexei EVER daring to strike an adult. I don't believe it without the first hand evidence in front of me.

NOW, Spiridovitch says and I quote "Alexei was a wild child, often uncontrollable and afraid of no one other than his father." HOWEVER, he is also described as "charming" "polite" "generous" and numerous examples are cited to support this.  I think the mere thought of his father's anger if he EVER struck an adult intentionally would be enough to keep him in line, not to mention the fact that Alexandra also was most strict about his manners and behavior around adults. He was, after all, being raised to be Emperor and being raised according to the strictest standards of Late Victorian and early Edwardian era manners and politesse.

I must ask at this point for the specific citations and supporting footnotes for the claim Alexei struck an adult (a WOMAN no less?)  in the nose causing it to bleed.

helenazar

  • Guest
Re: Was Alexei also a Grand Duke?
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2008, 10:48:04 AM »
From another thread ("His Manners and Behavior"  http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,1783.0.html):

The meanest thing I have ever read he did was the incident found in Fate of the Romanovs, where an eyewitness who lived near Livadia described how the heir “liked to greet people who bowed to him with a bloody nose by hitting them in the face as they bowed,” and when he was not allowed to do that, he greeted them with “very bad language” instead.


FOTR cites the Alexei using bad language as from Ekaterina Mikhailovna Frolova-Bagreeva whose family had a dacha near Livadia.

... As to Alexei being capable of hitting someone, I suggest you do some more research on this subject-there are other episodes, and one can be viewed in contemporary film footage, where Alexei smacks a young cadet squarely in the face....   

« Last Edit: February 02, 2008, 10:50:31 AM by Helen_A »

helenazar

  • Guest
Re: Was Alexei also a Grand Duke?
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2008, 11:02:17 AM »
We had an in depth discussion about the Ekaterina Mikhailovna Frolova-Bagreeva FOTR citation in some other thread some months ago - which I can't remember now- and the only thing we were able to come up with about this source was that it was cited from a very very obscure periodical found in one of the Harvard U Libraries. I tried to get a copy of this article a few months ago, but wasn't able to do so.

Offline Forum Admin

  • Administrator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4665
  • www.alexanderpalace.org
    • View Profile
    • Alexander Palace Time Machine
Re: Was Alexei also a Grand Duke?
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2008, 11:03:37 AM »
ummm, Helen, you know as well as I do that sadly, some of the editing work on FOTR has lead to sloppy concluions or inaccurate results.  I think we need something more concrete about the bloody nose thing when meeting people.  As for cadets, well that is a different kettle of fish, they are younger generally closer to Alexei's age, and as cadets would have been subordinate to Alexei's authority.  Spiridovitch reports, as I have repeatedly said here, that Alexei did often order soldiers to do outrageous things, but Nicholas always reprimanded him for doing it.

Slapping a young cadet is one thing. Bloodying the nose of a lady of the Court bowing to him on introduction is a different kettle of fish altogether. I still require something far more concrete than a mention in FOTR.

helenazar

  • Guest
Re: Was Alexei also a Grand Duke?
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2008, 11:41:34 AM »
I only posted that because Alexei's behavior was discussed before and the nose bleed incident was cited in FOTR, which is obviously where this story originated. Personally, as you know, I in no way accept FOTR as a credible source for anything anymore.

Offline Forum Admin

  • Administrator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4665
  • www.alexanderpalace.org
    • View Profile
    • Alexander Palace Time Machine
Re: Was Alexei also a Grand Duke?
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2008, 12:01:27 PM »
I know Helen, but before readers accept the bloody nose incident (s) as fact, we have to demonstrate the evidence clearly, thats all I meant.

Offline Belochka

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4447
  • City of Peter stand in all your splendor - Pushkin
    • View Profile
Re: Was Alexei also a Grand Duke?
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2008, 07:09:09 PM »
I only posted that because Alexei's behavior was discussed before and the nose bleed incident was cited in FOTR, which is obviously where this story originated. Personally, as you know, I in no way accept FOTR as a credible source for anything anymore.

The fact that the authors of FOTR chose to use an obscure uncorroborated statement, if only for the purpose to diminish Alexei's fine personal attributes, and then later to describe his assassination, is most disturbing by itself.

Rather than ignoring the trash that the reference obviously was, it seems that the FOTR authors should have taken the time to have checked the integrity of the original piece, including its authorship, before purposefully accepting it for inclusion into their text.

Margarita
« Last Edit: February 02, 2008, 07:14:26 PM by Belochka »


Faces of Russia is now on Facebook!


http://www.searchfoundationinc.org/

Offline CorisCapnSkip

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 283
  • I Love YaBB 2!
    • View Profile
Re: Was Alexei also a Grand Duke?
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2008, 03:28:45 AM »
Quote
Spiridovitch reports, in "Les Dernieres Annees..." where Alexei started a physical fight with a playmate at Livadia once.  Alexei and the playmate, the son of one of the senior officers had gone up to a little playground they have fixed up for him, under the attendant's care.  They were happily playing together, when all of a sudden Alexei began beating the other boy because he had left out "Gosudar"  from his title when the boy addressed him! Alexei was demanding his "full" title when the other little boy addressed him while playing.  Gosudar Naslednik Tsesarevich Velikii Knyaz Aleksei Nicholaievich

 :o I hope this was when he was younger. He was quite a brat, but grew out of it.

That's quite a mouthful.  He was obviously unaware of Tikki Tikki Tembo or similar stories.