Author Topic: Aristocracy and the occult  (Read 10778 times)

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Offline Puppylove

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Aristocracy and the occult
« on: January 25, 2008, 07:49:21 PM »
Hi all. This is a continuation of a a discussion regarding royalty and the occult which began in the Diana Enquiry thread. Grandduchessella, you referred to a horoscope containing "creepy accuracies" written up for Grand Duchess Olga of Russia at her birth. Do you know the specifics and could you share them here?

Thanks! Jenn
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Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Aristocracy and the occult
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2008, 10:21:59 PM »
Here are part of them--I only have some of the notes from the newspaper story:

Here's what it said:

Olga 'if her life is preserved, willl be of medium height. This...is clearly seen from the positions of Jupiter...and Neptune at the moment of her birth. The same data...vouch for the prediction that her hair will be brown and slightly curled...and her face inclined to roundness...At the age of one...may suffer a very severe illness. The horoscope further discovers critical periods in her 3rd (1898), 4th (1899), 6th (1901), 7th(1902) and 8th(1903) years.' All this is fairly standard (and anyone could've seen her face would be round looking at her as a baby!) but it continues that if she did manage to reach her 8th year, 'it is certain, however, that she will never life to be thirty.' This is what I found to be really creepy. I think it was in 1903 that the ideas first began to be banded about publicly that she might become Russia's ruler and one paper at the time dubbed her potentially the unhappiest woman in the world. Some of the other dates coincide with births of her siblings, her mother's relationship with Monsieur Philippe (and I think her miscarriage/phantom pregnancy) and death of her uncle George--all of which affected her family and her position.

This was published back in 1895.
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Offline Greenowl

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Re: Aristocracy and the occult
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2008, 01:31:39 PM »
Thanks Puppylove and Grandduchessella. The prediction that " 'it is certain, however, that she will never live to be thirty" is rather uncanny, to say the least. I do hope she was not aware of it.

I wonder did many people have their horoscopes cast? The only ones of which I am aware are the famous horoscopes cast by Johannes Kepler in Prague for Albrecht von Valdstejn (Wallenstein) and the various horoscopes that Col. William Hall-Walker (later Lord Wavertree) had cast for his horses.

Offline Mari

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Re: Aristocracy and the occult
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2008, 03:59:54 AM »
Count Louis Hamon was also called Cheiro (November 1, 1866 - October 8, 1936),  and read for many of the famous including Nicholas II. I remembered reading this a long time ago and hunted for it.

Quote
It was also through Edward VII that Hamon came to meet Tsar Nicholas II of Russia, about whom he predicted that around '1917 he will lose all he loves most by sword or strife in one form or another, and he himself will meet a violent death'. So intrigued was the Tsar by this prediction that in late 1904, on a visit to St Petersburg, Hamon was invited to dine with him at the Summer Palace. During his stay Gregori Rasputin came to meet Hamon one afternoon in January 1905. As with the Tsar, he predicted that Rasputin would suffer 'a violent end within a palace. You will be menaced by poison, by knife, and by bullet. Finally I see the icy waters of the Neva closing above you'. It goes without saying that both Rasputin and the Tzar were to lose their lives in the manner prescribed.

http://www.andrewcollins.com/page/articles/chapter.htm

http://www.quotationspage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=77051&sid=4672de05901b3884cab01bb0ff63b4e5 This is also interesting telling much more!

For primary source material see the below which is supposed to include the Czar's predictions!

Quote
In his own autobiographical book, "Cheiro's Memoirs: The Reminiscences of a Society Palmist", he included accounts of his interviews with King Edward VII, William Gladstone, Charles Stewart Parnell, Henry Morton Stanley, Sarah Bernhardt, Oscar Wilde, Professor Max Muller, Blanche Roosevelt, the Comte de Paris, Joseph Chamberlain, Lord Russell of Killowen, Robert Ingersoll, Ella Wheeler Wilcox, Lilly Langtry, Mark Twain, W.T. Stead, Richard Croker, Natalia Janotha, and other prominent people of his era.

http://www.astrotheme.fr/en/portraits/9pjjezyyW9XJ.htm
« Last Edit: January 28, 2008, 04:03:29 AM by Mari »

Offline TampaBay

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Re: Aristocracy and the occult
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2008, 07:22:56 AM »
Did not some Gypsy at some fair read/tell the fortunes of Alix & Irene of Hesse?  I remember reading this somewhere but cannot recall the source.

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Offline Puppylove

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Re: Aristocracy and the occult
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2008, 01:37:19 PM »
Does anyone familiar with Russian Orthodoxy know what views the church would have had on such occult practices in the early 1900s, and would those views be the same today?
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Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Aristocracy and the occult
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2008, 07:09:45 PM »
Here are some posts I'd made in the Windsor section where this first came up:

According to numerous newspaper reports at the time, Queen Alexandra and her daughter Louise were both very fond of soothsayers and QA even owned a crystal ball. There was a book published in 1911, 'Recollections of a Society Clairvoyant' where the author detailed her experiences with royals including Empress Alexandra, Kaiser Wilhelm, Emperor Franz Josef (the previous 2 were said to be fervent believers in dreams & omens), King Humbert, King Leopold II , Queens Natalie & Draga of Serbia and King Alexander of Serbia. The palm reader Cheiro also published memoirs which included stories of King Edward VII having his palm read. King Haakon apparently drew a horoscope of the life of the newborn Grand Duchess Olga (which had some very creepy accuracies--and was published in the papers at the time, not after her life ended). Queen Maud was written of as a fortune teller.

The famous medium & levitist Daniel Dunglas Home entertained Queen Victoria, Napoleon III and Queen Sophia of the Netherlands who wrote of ""I saw him four times...I felt a hand tipping my finger; I saw a heavy golden bell moving alone from one person to another; I saw my handkerchief move alone and return to me with a knot... It is wonderful. I am so glad I have seen it...". Both Queen Victoria and Prince Albert had been entertained by the clairvoyant Georgina Eagle and Victoria dabbled in table-turning when Spiritualism was at its height in the late nineteenth century. The Marquis of Lorne himself was given to clairvoyant visions and had a sister who was a spiritualist "and looked it," according to Disraeli.

It was said that QV's necromantic interests became so great that she appointed her own royal psychic, Robert Lees. Lees, a friend of Disraeli, supposedly arranged the seances at which QV tried to communicate with Albert's spirit. According to Longford's bio, supposedly Albert was contacted and, in return, advised his queen to send for John Brown to act as resident medium and metaphysical go-between. Weintraub's bio notes that Edgar Boehm heard that the Queen had "got it into her head that somehow the Prince's spirit had passed into Brown" and Longford notes that "the records of Brown's spiritualist seances with" QV were burned. However, Longford didn't believe many of the stories of Lees and the seances for a variety of reasons. Still, Lees (whether by request or on his own initiative) sent at least 4 copies of his book, Through the Mists, to various royals (the acknowledgement of their receipt still exists). They were the Duchess of York, Princess Beatrice, Queen Victoria and the Princess of Wales.

The Greek royals were supposedly much interested in spritualism. It was during thier periods of British exile that George II and his brother, Paul, became supporters of England’s top medium, Estelle Roberts who was famous not only as a platform medium whose clairvoyance attracted huge audiences, but also as a physical medium, producing evidence through direct voice (in which a spirit is heard speaking in a recognisable voice through a levitated trumpet in a darkened séance room), and also as a healer. King George and Paul, along with their sister, Helen, attended many of her private séances as well as public meetings and following the guidance of Estelle Roberts’ spirit guide, Red Cloud. At the time, though they made no attempts to hide their identities, the medium and her family always referred to the brothers as “Mr Roy” (George) and “Mr Constantine” (Paul) – the names they used when travelling incognito. In her autobiography, Fifty Years a Medium, Roberts revealed: “King George was the most frequent visitor. He loved Red Cloud, and liked to discuss all manner of subjects with him. Greece was in a troubled ferment at this time. The King, exiled in England, came many times to discuss his country’s affairs with Red Cloud. “When eventually he was invited to return to the throne of Greece, as the guide had foretold, he wrote often, sending questions for Red Cloud to answer.  I still have his letters covering the years from 1933 to 1940.  They are, of course, entirely private, and will never be allowed to pass out of my hands.” King George attended the opening of the House of Red Cloud in Wimbledon, in October 1934, when it was dedicated to healing the sick and for demonstrations of Estelle Roberts’ psychic gifts.
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Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Aristocracy and the occult
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2008, 07:10:48 PM »
Of course, some royals were devout believers whereas others just viewed it as entertainment, others probably a little bit of both depending on what was being presented.

It wasn't just royals of the Victorian/Edwardian era--the British upper class (I don't know about continental nobility) was very interested in the occult. Many house parties had a fortune teller, palm reader or seance for entertainment. Some took it more seriously than others, of course. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle was especially noted in this area, writing books on spiritualism. Perhaps there was something in experimenting with the occult & spiritualism that this repressed and buttoned-down era found liberating and rebellious. One article wrote that "One important question of the spiritualist movement is why it had such appeal, particularly among the well-educated upper and middle classes...unquestionable is that the movement did have widespread popularity; one need only consider the great number of articles devoted to spiritualism in the popular Victorian periodicals....most of the rich supply of documentation on the spiritualist movement is written by and about the upper and middle classes. One writer of the period commented that the "higher the class, the more fiercely did it [spiritualism] rage through it."
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Offline pookiepie

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Re: Aristocracy and the occult
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2008, 01:12:59 AM »
Does anyone familiar with Russian Orthodoxy know what views the church would have had on such occult practices in the early 1900s, and would those views be the same today?

they're absolutley forbidden, then and now. this isn't acceptable in orthodoxy.

Offline Puppylove

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Re: Aristocracy and the occult
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2008, 12:47:25 PM »
Thanks for your response, Pookiepie, I assumed this would be the case, but know nothing about Orthodoxy and am here to learn! Can you (or anyone) explain to me the relationship between Russian royalty and the Church at that time? Were royals aside from Nicholas and Alexandra obligated to represent the Church in their public or private behavior?

Greenowl, you raise an interesting issue, whether or not Grand Duchess Olga knew of that horoscope predicting her death before age 30; would you have wanted to know? I think it's a lot of hocus pocus, and yet if I heard something like that about my own life it would chill me to the bone!

Jenn
"The censor's sword pierces deeply into the heart of free expression." Earl Warren

"...and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32

Offline Greenowl

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Re: Aristocracy and the occult
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2008, 05:54:32 AM »

Greenowl, you raise an interesting issue, whether or not Grand Duchess Olga knew of that horoscope predicting her death before age 30; would you have wanted to know? I think it's a lot of hocus pocus, and yet if I heard something like that about my own life it would chill me to the bone!


Hi Puppylove! Whether true or not, I would most certainly NOT want to be told something like that. While I agree that most of this horoscope/fortune-telling stuff is hocus pocus, some of it is uncanny and thus I am reluctant to totally disregard it. However, I think that one should not underestimate the power of suggestion....positive suggestion can be inspiring and work wonders, while negative suggestion can have the opposite effect. Hence the mere fact of "predicting" something can actually make the the "prophecy" self-fulfilling, if you know what I mean. For this reason I think such practices can be extremely dangerous, especially for vulnerable individuals.

Offline Puppylove

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Re: Aristocracy and the occult
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2008, 12:22:35 PM »
Greenowl, I too have wondered if self-fulfilling prophecy is at the heart of a person's belief in these things. (Obviously not applicable in Olga's case). If the medium tells me Grandpa has a message from the beyond for me, and lo and behold Grandpa appears to me in a dream, then does that validate the medium? If I'm vulnerable to this kind of thinking then it probably does. But better to hold onto my 20 bucks and wait for Grandpa to visit me when he's good and ready!

I can understand the desperation that drives family members and even police departments to call on psychics in missing persons or unsolved murder cases; desperate measures for desperate times. But I don't understand people like Diana and Fergie, where image is everything, being knee-deep in this stuff on a day-to-day basis. Maybe I'm being unfair?
"The censor's sword pierces deeply into the heart of free expression." Earl Warren

"...and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32

Offline imperial angel

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Re: Aristocracy and the occult
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2008, 02:37:34 PM »
I think Fergie and Diana on the outside might have appeared like they probably weren't desperate enough to consort with psychics and people like that. But, although I am not as knowledgeable about Fergie and this, Diana felt like she needed these people just as much as people in sitiuations that might seem easier to understand did. I don't think she got that involved in them until the late 80s- and especially early 90s when her marriage had pretty much fallen apart and she was looking at what to do next. She felt she needed the assistance of these people in a tough time. Of course, it is dubious if she did. She went through alot of these sorts of people. So, in her own way she felt she needed them. Sometimes you do find some truth in these sorts of things, but they shouldn't be the whole answer. The thing about Olga is really eerie, and that's what I mean, there are grains of truth, but it shouldn't be taken as your answer. I think that's what Diana felt it was.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2008, 02:39:12 PM by imperial angel »

Offline Greenowl

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Re: Aristocracy and the occult
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2008, 06:06:25 PM »
Yes, I do find it extraordinary that both the late Diana, Princes of Wales and her former sister-in-law were so involved in the "occult" (for want of a better word). However, as Imperial Angel said, they obviously felt vulnerable and unsure of themselves.  I also think that like a lot of things, consultations with psychics can become addictive and that is what probably happened in Diana's case...she developed a dependence on these people.

Offline pandora

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Re: Aristocracy and the occult
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2008, 06:15:53 AM »
Mari - yes, I've been to a psychic. With a group of gals I'm friends with, we had a "girls night out" which included a visit to a psychic. All of us enjoyed the visit as none of us looked to our visit & readings with nothing more than amusement and fun. After our visit, we compared our "notes", per se, and came to the conclusion that the majority of what was said was pretty general and very open to interpretation. For instance, the psychic told me I'd be receiving a larger than normal amount money - it was tax season so I realized that was very strong possibility.
Since that one-time visit I haven't returned to this gal, but I know through one of my friends this particular psychic is busy with her trade. I certainly understand the appeal of psychics to people as we always want to know what the future holds for us but I can't cross over that boundary that allows me to honestly believe they are able to "see" the future. But, they are fun!