Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna, discussion and pictures Part 1

[Eric_Lowe]

Yes...A gay husband is better than no husband at all. It got her out of the house and cluthes of Minny. She was actually surprised when she discoved that Olga wanted to marry...

[Romanov_fan]

Well, I guess that Olga was happy to be married, even if it was most obviously a marriage of convenience rather than anything else. She most likely did value the freedom, but Dagmar as a mother was never as bad as Alexandra of England for keeping her children tied to her. She would have probably not stayed in the marriage past a certain point, though, Kulikovsky or no. She had too much common sense to remain in such a union.

[Ena]

Well, I guess that Olga was happy to be married, even if it was most obviously a marriage of convenience rather than anything else. She most likely did value the freedom, but Dagmar as a mother was never as bad as Alexandra of England for keeping her children tied to her. She would have probably not stayed in the marriage past a certain point, though, Kulikovsky or no. She had too much common sense to remain in such a union.

So true.  She went to Peter and asked for a divorce early on.  He was the one who asked for the seven year window.  I wonder how things would be different had he agreed to the divorce right then and there.

[Janet_W.]

Hmm, well I don't know if such a decision involves common sense . . . I would say that Olga probably felt, "Enough is enough!" Or, in the expression of the day, "Basta!"  Yes, her marriage meant she wouldn't become another Toria. But the sexual tension must have been agony, and if I remember correctly Olga cites, among other things, the loss of her hair as evidence of her stress/unhappiness. The typical option would have been to have settled into a pattern of taking lover after lover. But it appears that Olga waited until she found someone she wanted to spend her life with. Then Olga realized that she, and he, would be much happier if their relationship was regularized by marriage. Too many Romanovs had been getting divorces, and Olga undoubtedly felt the strain of wanting to have a happy marital relationship but not scandalize her family any further. However, once war was declared and life in general became upended, it became easier for Olga to manage both a divorce and a remarriage.

Personally speaking, I think Olga Alexandrovna--despite her later poverty--is one of the true success stories of European royalty!

[Eric_Lowe]

Yes in terms of personal life that is...Unlike her sister Xenia. 

[carkuczyn]

when you say "unlike her sister xenia"  what are you talking about?  i thought she and sandro had a good marriage.

[Eddie_uk]

No, Xenia and Sandro seperated sadly

[LisaDavidson]

A couple of points of clarification:

1. Olga Alexandrovna learned of her engagement to Prince Peter by reading the newspaper. It was not a marriage she chose by any stretch of the imagination, it was entirely arranged by the two mothers. Prince Peter enjoyed the financial advantages of being married to a member of the Imperial Family, and the social prestige of being the Emperor's brother in law. We have only OA's word that they were never sexually intimate, and I know of no evidence to suggest the PO was homosexual.

2. Xenia and Sandro's marriage was a complex one that really can't be reduced to "happy" or "unhappy". They were passionately in love at the beginning of their marriage and they had a very large family that they loved very much. Their feelings toward each other faded over time and both had affairs outside the marriage. At one point, Sandro wanted to divorce Xenia to be with one of his lovers, but he eventually returned to his wife. By the time of the Revolution, they had settled into a content marriage based upon their admiration for one another. They shared imprisonment in the Crimea together. Sandro there left along with their eldest son to attend the Versailles peace conference. When Xenia left Russia with her mother, her cousin George offered her a home in his country. But, except for Dmitri Pavlovich, all Russian grand dukes were banned from Great Britain. Thus, the "separation" was one of economic necessity due to His Majesty's government. One of their grandsons recalls that Xenia would often sneak over to France to visit her husband and recalls seeing them together there many times. His grandfather described her as "a magnificent woman" and she mourned Sandro after he died in the 1930's. Not a fairy tale marriage by a long shot, but a relationship that endured for decades and one still remembered by their many descendants.

[Eric_Lowe]

Also it was recorded that Xenia also took a lover later but the relationship later failed. She also refused to grant Sandro the divorce he asked for (had she agreed, it would have taken place).

No...Minny was taken by surprise. She wrote to Nicholas II " Children are children no more ! I am sure youwon't BELIEVE what happened. Olga is engaged to PETYA and BOTH are very happy. I had to consent, but it was all done so quickly and unexpectedly that I still cannot believe it; but PETYA is nice, I like him, and God willing, they will be happy. Don't talk about it yet, except to your Alix of course, your agitated Mama." (Patricia Phenix's Olga Romanov. Pg. 47).

[LisaDavidson]

Also it was recorded that Xenia also took a lover later but the relationship later failed. She also refused to grant Sandro the divorce he asked for (had she agreed, it would have taken place).

No...Minny was taken by surprise. She wrote to Nicholas II " Children are children no more ! I am sure youwon't BELIEVE what happened. Olga is engaged to PETYA and BOTH are very happy. I had to consent, but it was all done so quickly and unexpectedly that I still cannot believe it; but PETYA is nice, I like him, and God willing, they will be happy. Don't talk about it yet, except to your Alix of course, your agitated Mama." (Patricia Phenix's Olga Romanov. Pg. 47).

Divorce in Imperial Russia was entirely in the hands of the Emperor. While Xenia's consent to divorce may have held weight with her brother, the Emperor, it was no guarantee that it would take place. Nicholas was very conservative as a ruler and a devout Orthodox Christian. I don't think he would have agreed to a divorce between Xenia and Sandro easily.

Olga relates a completely different story in her memoirs as related to Ian Vorres. There is too much to quote verbatim under "fair use", but her tale was she was "tricked into it". The engagement was jointly announced by her mother and brother, and Olga always told everyone that her mother and his had enginered the whole "engagement".

[Eric_Lowe]

True...So the marriage was unhappy, why then does Sandro want out and Xenia took a lover. Compared to that. Olga and her second husband was very happy with each other. That is basically my point really.

I am glad that the new book banishes the myth of Olga forced into a relationship. She didn't. Olga found a good match with Peter of Oldenburg (good on paper that was). It was understandable that Olga would want to get out before turning into another "Toria" (as she said even though Aunt Alix was so good in other things, but treated her unmarried daughter as a "glorified maid")., which Minnie had every reason to expect from Olga. She took the plunge into freedom from Mama's apron strings...at least. Nicholas wrote that he cannot believe the news and he and his wife "laughed so much reading your note that we have not recovered yet." (certainly not one whose sister was forced into marriage ?). No I think Olga wanted so much to get out that she didn't think about the details of marriage much. It was later thinking back that she believe she was tricked into it. It was the same with the Anastasia issue, her notes to the invalid confirmed she had reconized Anna Anderson, it was later that she changed the story.

[LisaDavidson]

True...So the marriage was unhappy, why then does Sandro want out and Xenia took a lover. Compared to that. Olga and her second husband was very happy with each other. That is basically my point really.

I am glad that the new book banishes the myth of Olga forced into a relationship. She didn't. Olga found a good match with Peter of Oldenburg (good on paper that was). It was understandable that Olga would want to get out before turning into another "Toria" (as she said even though Aunt Alix was so good in other things, but treated her unmarried daughter as a "glorified maid")., which Minnie had every reason to expect from Olga. She took the plunge into freedom from Mama's apron strings...at least. Nicholas wrote that he cannot believe the news and he and his wife "laughed so much reading your note that we have not recovered yet." (certainly not one whose sister was forced into marriage ?). No I think Olga wanted so much to get out that she didn't think about the details of marriage much. It was later thinking back that she believe she was tricked into it. It was the same with the Anastasia issue, her notes to the invalid confirmed she had reconized Anna Anderson, it was later that she changed the story.

And, my point with the Xenia/Sandro marriage was it was a far more complex relationship that defies the simplistic labels of "happy" or "unhappy". As with many marriages, it was probably both a various points in time. If your point, Eric, is that it was unhappy at one time and that both had lovers outside the marriage, I stated that from the beginning. If your point is that the marriage must be labeled as "unhappy" from that point on, then I disagree. The British Royal Family is what kept the couple apart in the last 15 years of their marriage.

As to Olga, I think it pure conjecture that she married the first time to escape her mother. Do you have any evidence to support this or is it in fact your conjecture? A marriage unconsumated for so many years appears far more likely to me to have been an arranged marriage than not. Peter of Oldenberg drained Olga's bank accounts with his gambling. When she asked him for a divorce or separation, he instead thrust her into a bizarre menage a trois (not in a sexual sense). I accept her views on this marriage and not others'.

As to Olga and AA, I would be very careful about accepting Phenix's word on the subject. I think it more likely that she disbelieved but at the same time, wanted to believe.

[grandduchessella]

I found Phenix's take on Olga's first marriage interesting, especially in the quotes from letters. I think Charlotte Zeepvat has also taken a different look at the marriage but I may be mixing her up with someone else--there was at least one article in Royalty Digest on GDss Olga. I tend to think (and this is just my opinion) that perhaps Olga did take a hand in her future, mistaken in her choice of husbands as she was. She certainly had plenty of 'spunk' and, based on her determination to marry her 2nd husband, I think the ability to try and dictate her own life, away from what her mother wanted. Peter may have seemed a decent choice--royals often didn't marry for love and marriage to him would give her independence and, at the same time, the ability to remain in Russia. It probably seemed a decent enough bargain to make but, while she had definite strength of character, she still would've been fairly innocent in the ways of male/female relations and not realized what she would be gaining (or not) along with her independence from her mother. Were it not for meeting someone she truly loved, who knows whether she would've maintained that first marriage. Being willing to go up against society's dictates in terms of who her 2nd husband was (a nobody in Imperial eyes) and in gaining a divorce in such a traditional and religious environment definitely shows she wasn't afraid to grasp at the chance to get what she wanted. The Vorres memoirs are definitely one-sided (as to be expected since it's almost an autobiography rather than an objective look at the subject) and I don't think (again, all my own opinion) that they can be taken as the full, unvarnished truth. It can be difficult for someone to look back objectively at their own life--and mistakes--as is witnessed as well with Marie Pavlovna's memoirs.

As for Xenia and Sandro (not to get too off-topic) didn't the request for a divorce come after the Revolution? I agree with Lisa, definitely a complex relationship. It started off so promisingly, more so than most royal marriages, with both partners passionately in love with each other. It's a shame how it petered out but they maintained a bond and a family unit and are buried side-by-side.

[Eric_Lowe]

Grandduchessella, I agree with your accessment of the Grand Duchess Olga situation. You were right to site Charlotte Zeepvat (whom I have the pleasure of meeting quite a few times). She also changed her opinion not only after the Phenix book, but also after extensive research on related subjects as well. It seems that Olga (the hothead) chose to get out of the situation of old maid before it could be a done deal. She expected a friendship marriage but found out later that she and Peter had nothing in common. However he was fond of her wrote intimate notes to her that show that it was not a "sham" marriage at all. It was usually the time of refection that one changes her view on things and that happened to Olga with the Vorres book. I like the phenix book as told more of Olga's life than the Vorres book.

As for Sando and Xenia, yes they were in love and had a nice family. However Sandro was not the stable kind and like other Romanovs found comforts in other women. Later Sandro even wanted to divorce Xenia and marry someone else, but she refuse to grant it to him (so it did not even went as far as Nicholas II). Insread Xenia took a lover, and that relationship also floundered. If you can call this a happy marriage, so be it. I found the Olga & Kulikovsky marriage more of my idea of a happy and fulfilled marriage.

[Romanov_fan]

Well, Xzenia and Sandro's marriage was perhaps happy by royal standards, if not by those of the average individual. They were very much in love when they married, more so than most royals, they had many children, all sons execpt for one. This would make the marriage a success by both royal and non royal standards, except for later things. They did later have a marriage that fell apart, but perhaps always retained some affectionate memories of what it had been, once. At least, I think they did even if they no longer felt that way.


As for Olga, she said her first marriage was forced upon her. Yet, it might have been desirable to her to escape from her mother, and yet with this marriage she could stay in Russia and have a comfortable life. So, it might have been okay with her, even if it wasn't her choice. Her mother certainly liked to seem to indicate that it was her choice, even if it was not. But, then, she accused her mother of plotting it, so her mother may not have wanted to admit it. I think her mother planned it, but Olga may have been more okay with it than she ever wanted to admit later. Prince Peter did get advantages from her, in being married to her. Olga did later know what she wanted, but she was young and may have been confused at the time of her first marriage. She may have tried to see the good in it rather than the bad, until she fell in love with Kulikovsky. Then, and perhaps only then, did she realize what she had been missing.