Author Topic: Amber room found  (Read 30954 times)

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Offline Seeker

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Re: Amber room found
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2008, 11:46:56 AM »
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Offline pandora

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Re: Amber room found
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2008, 04:23:51 PM »
If this is true, wouldn't it be wonderful??

Offline emeraldeyes

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Re: Amber room found
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2008, 08:57:41 AM »
How exciting!  It will be interesting to see how this story develops...It's terribly surprising to me that the 'mainstream' media has not picked up this story.  But I guess spy satellites and war and stuff trumps this type of thing.
Thanks very much for bringing this story to our attention!  :  )
An intelligent Hell would be better than a stupid paradise.  - Victor Hugo


Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Amber room found
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2008, 09:24:57 AM »
Hmmm... I thought I had already heard this story a couple of years ago (that they found the Amber Room). Maybe I just dreamed it up.

In any case, even if they found it now, the Amber Room would not exist any more as such ... Amber is organic and can only last for about 200-250 years, so by now, even if it was not stolen it would have disintegrated anyway... So whatever they found - if they indeed found it - would not be much to look at...

Offline verikyno

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Re: Amber room found
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2008, 11:59:48 AM »
Just wanted to clarify - most of the worlds amber is 30-90 million years old - it does not disinegrate in 200-250 years????? So if the amber room is out there and has not been burned - it will last forever. 

Offline Seeker

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Re: Amber room found
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2008, 01:17:08 PM »
Russia says if it is the Amber room, it'll be brought to Russia

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080222/99892528.html
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Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Amber room found
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2008, 03:47:37 PM »
Just wanted to clarify - most of the worlds amber is 30-90 million years old - it does not disinegrate in 200-250 years?????

When exposed to air and out of the sea (which is where it forms and lasts for millions of years), apparently it does disintegrate relatively quickly (a few hundred years). I was surprised to learn this too, but this information came directly from the artists who recreated the new Amber Room at Tsarskoe Selo... And I assumed that they would know because they are experts in amber.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2008, 03:56:08 PM by Helen_A »

Offline Vladimir_V.

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Re: Amber room found
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2008, 01:42:43 AM »
I think Helen has wrong information.
There are a lot of amber items that were made in XVII century. 400 years ago!

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Amber room found
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2008, 08:10:54 AM »
I think Helen has wrong information.
There are a lot of amber items that were made in XVII century. 400 years ago!

Maybe these items were stored out of light in special containers which reduced their exposure to oxygen? I can only tell you what the Amber Room guys told me when I was there in 2005, that exposure to light and air is what makes the amber disintegrate relatively fast. I was specifically asking them about the original Amber Room and whether it could ever be found and returned, and this is when they told me that it wouldn't matter if they found it at this point since it would be more or less disintegrated by now if the amber wasn't stored properly. Remember, amber is not like precious stone which is inorganic and almost indestructible, amber is purely organic.

BTW, which 400-year-old amber items are you referring to?

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Re: Amber room found
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2008, 09:17:27 AM »
Amber is fossilized resin.  It can be from 10,000 to millions of years old.  Is does NOT disintegrate.  From B. Kosmowska-Ceranowicz, K. Leciejewicz, K. Kwiatkowska és A. Pielińska Briefly about amber


Primary and secondary varieties of Baltic amber

The varieties of Baltic amber can be divided into primary and secondary. The main basis for further division in the group of primary varieties is the internal structure of amber which determines its transparency and colour. The transparency and colour of amber depend on the number and arrangement of gas bubbles in the lump.

The group of primary varieties, depending on the internal structure, includes: (1) transparent amber, (2) translucent amber, (3) opaque yellow amber, (4) opaque white amber, in which the internal structure is that of a solid foam, while the colour is white, sometimes bluish.

Another group of primary varieties includes amber polluted with organic substance and wood chips. These variety is called "earth" though they have nothing to do with soil. The “earth” amber often contains numerous gas bubbles formed during decomposition; it may also contain plant and animal inclusions.

The primary varieties of amber are not durable and under the effect of air, light, humidity fluctuations and temperature changes they change their colour and internal structure, getting transformed into secondary varieties. The yellow colour changes into red or orange; the change in the internal structure consists in formation of e.g. numerous cracks inside the lump, which leads to the so called "sugar" structure. Besides, eroded amber becomes covered with a layer of "cortex" or “sheepskin”, its surface becomes rough and uneven. The most eroded are the amber lumps that stayed in the soil, above ground water level, for a long time. Also specimens from old collections or for a long time exposed to air and light, as is often the case with exhibits, change their colour from yellow to red and orange, or from white to yellowish.


http://www.hermuz.hu/engweb/nws/amber2.htm

Offline Vladimir_V.

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Offline Helen_Azar

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« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2008, 09:27:25 AM »
The primary varieties of amber are not durable and under the effect of air, light, humidity fluctuations and temperature changes they change their colour and internal structure, getting transformed into secondary varieties. The yellow colour changes into red or orange; the change in the internal structure consists in formation of e.g. numerous cracks inside the lump, which leads to the so called "sugar" structure. Besides, eroded amber becomes covered with a layer of "cortex" or “sheepskin”, its surface becomes rough and uneven. The most eroded are the amber lumps that stayed in the soil, above ground water level, for a long time. Also specimens from old collections or for a long time exposed to air and light, as is often the case with exhibits, change their colour from yellow to red and orange, or from white to yellowish.

Hmmm.. I wonder if this is what they meant by "disintegrate"... They specifically said it would disintegrate when exposed to air and light due to the fact that it's organic. Perhaps they didn't know what they were talking about and I just assumed they did. Goes to show you how important it is to check the sources and assume nothing, no matter who it comes from! I of all people should know about that ;-)

In any case, it sounds like the Amber Room would not look the same as it did originally, if it was found today... But then of course that also means that it didn't look like it did originally in the 1940's either. Depending on where it was stored since then, it may or may have gotten more and more discolored, unless being stored in the cave more or less protected it from the elements.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2008, 09:43:45 AM by Helen_A »

Offline Seeker

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Re: Amber room found
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2008, 11:58:14 AM »
Amber is a yellow transparent or translucent fossilized material formed from resin that oozed from trees many thousands or millions of years ago. It is sometimes tinted red, orange, or brown, and may be clouded by minuscule air bubbles. Trees exude resin for many reasons, among them to combat disease, seal wounds, and prevent attack by insects. The material is initially sticky, but on exposure to light and air, most resins tend to harden into solid masses that are resistant to normal decay processes. Pieces of amber often survive, buried in soils or sediments, for millions of years, yielding invaluable scientific information about the history of life on Earth.

"Resins that do not form polymers tend to be soft and are less able to survive the physical attrition that occurs when they are buried in sediments," Anderson says. "In most cases, ambers contain a macromolecular phase within which nonpolymerizable components become trapped. The polymerizable components in ambers tend to be fairly consistent across many species and throughout geologic time."

http://pubs.acs.org/cen/whatstuff/85/8511sci3.html
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Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Amber room found
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2008, 12:02:41 PM »
Well so much for the Amber Room artisans' expertise on amber!

BTW, if anyone would like to see the behind-the-scenes action at the amber workshop in Tsarskoe Selo, you can see it here: 

http://www.geocities.com/mushkah/Amberroom.html