historical accuracy/ethics question regarding writing books

[helenazar]

It is however a criticism made of Massie's (non-Russian) works that he fails to follow up on the most up to date research, even when available. He also as I have commented previously missed a trick in failing to get interviews for N&A in the 60s, and to question some of the premises in the books he used.

I agree.

[helenazar]

One more related story about a fraudulent "non-fiction" work: Gang Memoir, Turning Page, Is Pure Fiction  http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/04/books/04fake.html?_r=1&oref=slogin 

This seems to be an epidemic lately, what's going on? 

[Puppylove]

One more related story about a fraudulent "non-fiction" work: Gang Memoir, Turning Page, Is Pure Fiction  http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/04/books/04fake.html?_r=1&oref=slogin 

This seems to be an epidemic lately, what's going on? 

Good question! I love the memoir format, but all these bogus books are going to have a chilling effect on the genre at some point. In our confessional age you'd think it would be a piece of cake to find a genuine gang member or holocaust survivor willing to talk without having to invent them. (Then again, maybe not...AA was willing to talk and we all know how that played out....)

[Robert_Hall]

What is sad to me, is, that the book itself is worthwhile, very well wrtiien and engaging. [I have read just an except and listened to a reading, but it is not something that really interests me]. If it had been  sold for what it is- a novel in memoir form, it probably could have done well on it's own merits.

[helenazar]

What is sad to me, is, that the book itself is worthwhile, very well wrtiien and engaging. [I have read just an except and listened to a reading, but it is not something that really interests me]. If it had been  sold for what it is- a novel in memoir form, it probably could have done well on it's own merits.

The same is the case with James Frye's "memoirs", it could have stood on its own merit if marketed as a fiction novel. The problem is, both these books were presented as non-fiction, the readers were led to believe it was non-fiction, which makes it fraud... The publishers claim not to have been aware of this (?).

[Robert_Hall]

One would think the publishers would  do some  verification   before putting their name on a book.  But this has happened so many times before- The Eugenia Smith "Anastaia" memoirs,  Hitler diaries,  the recent "wolf lady" escaping Nazis [that one was a hoot!], etc.
 I have recently been  helping a friend  with research for  a novel he is writing. His first person prose is chillingly realistic, even though he was no where near the events he is writing about. In my opinion,  this work could easily pass as a "memoir".  He has no intention of doing so however.
 In my experience, a good writer puts a great deal of effort, thought and  creativity into  almost every word they put on paper.  Why any of them would want to mis-represent all that work is beyond me.

[helenazar]

One would think the publishers would  do some  verification   before putting their name on a book. 

I honestly don't think they ever do... It would probably be so time consuming to check up on every non-fiction book they publish! They just trust the authors, I guess...  Maybe now that this is becoming an "epidemic", they will do more of checking up...

I have recently been  helping a friend  with research for  a novel he is writing. His first person prose is chillingly realistic, even though he was no where near the events he is writing about. In my opinion,  this work could easily pass as a "memoir".  He has no intention of doing so however.
 

That's what those other authors should have done, but they probably figured that the book would sell better if everyone thought that it was a true story (which I guess is true). The author should be held responsible for unethical practices, IMO...

  In my experience, a good writer puts a great deal of effort, thought and  creativity into  almost every word they put on paper.  Why any of them would want to mis-represent all that work is beyond me.

I agree. It's beyond me too. Maybe they are just so desperate to stand out and become well known that they are willing to sacrifice almost anything...

[AGRBear]

Annie wrote this on her web site:

>>It does look as if the blows against Anderson's claim would now be insurmountable, and enough to end this fractured fairy tale once and for all. Though the DNA and photos speak for themselves, and now that the last two missing bodies have been found, Anderson supporters continue to cling to their ideals and grasp at straws trying anything and stopping at nothing to make you believe there still might be a chance she was Anastasia. Some go so far as to invent outrageous conspiracy theories to discredit those connected with the DNA testing, and reality itself.

I  began this project believing there is a real need for someone to oppose that perpetuated fantasy with a 'mythbusters' or 'Amazing Randy' alternative to the worn out legend that should long ago have been put to bed, if that's what it takes to let the truth finally be free of the fiction. My only goal is to dispell this myth for truth in history and for the memory of the real Anastasia. I want to prevent any more innocent information seekers from being misled by Anderson supporters. I have no 'agenda' other than this...<<

Let me repeat Annie's line:

>>...now that the last two missing bodies have been found...<<

Did I miss a public annoucement  which told us that the Russians and the Americans had proven the 44 fragments of bones found in July in the 2 pits are Alexei and a grand duchess through their testing of DNA and mtDNA? 

AGRBear

[Annie]

Bear, when the news was released, the experts said they were sure enough it was them that news stories carried it as fact. The headline here on this site read that the remains had been found. The news stories even changed from 'believed to be' to actually found after news conferences with those involved explained how the grave was exactly where recently discovered documents said it would be, that it contained the same bullets and ceramic acid jars as the other grave, and that the remains were a young boy and girl. No, the DNA tests are not back yet, but when the people who found and examined the bones said they were sure it was the right thing, I accept that. Even if they were not able to extract DNA from the burned remains, the fat lady really has sung here, regardless of how you and a few others want to hold onto the dream of the bodies still being missing.(Oh and also don't forget that no other bones were found in the area so don't try to say it was some random Stalin victim) Besides, on the part of my site you quoted above, that bolded sentence about the bodies being found is a clickable link that takes you to my 'missing remains found??!!' section where more detailed info on the story and the evidence is presented for everyone to read and decide for themselves. It has the links to several major media news stories, the thread here, and the SEARCH foundation's press releases.

And if you're going to start picking on my website, I'll answer any questions, because I stand behind what I have written. It is admittedly a mixture of actual facts, info and quotes  from the 'other side' that AA supporters aren't going to tell you, and my own logical explainations of what most likely happened in certain situations. For example, I don't claim to have any 'startling new evidence' that the Schanzkowska family admitted to denying AA, but I do bring up likely reasons why they did and try to piece together what must have went on, now that we know that she was FS, something had to have happened behind the scenes we don't know about and no one is going to tell so we just have to put two and two together. If you want to pick, I can find you dozens of blatant inaccuracies and misquotes on the many pro-AA sites out there on the web, but I don't think this thread was meant to explore websites. But unlike a published book, the websites (theirs and mine) are free to read and no one asked you to pay money for them.

[Robert_Hall]

Annie, you make a very good point. Most books are available to either buy [my option] or  borrow from public libraries. So much of what is  posted on the www is opinionated drivel, I tend to  find a printed source with references to back up what I have to say.
 Recently, I became involved in a discussion of  the making of Gone With The Wind.  I heard things I never knew and found fascinating. So- off to Amazon and Bookfinder.  I have ended up ordering 7 books on just that one subject! Now I will have to order a copy of the movie itself, I suppose.
 Obviously, there are many versions of the same  theme.
 It is funny about the  Romanovs.  Just one  pro AA book is accepted as the  "bible" for that cause, yet  dozens  of others refute the claim in various forms. Yet the fantasy persists.
 In both cases, the authors have done their job.  Well in most cases, sloppy in others.
 It is no easy matter to get published now-a-days.  Which is why posited ealier  that I  would think  publishers would  at least verify their author's credentials.
 I enjoy reading for the sake of reading.  Either to gain knowledge or simple entertainment. I also participate in the process of writing with several authors over the years. I enjoy that as well.  For the most part.
 For odd reasons of circumstance, however, the only books on the Romanovs I have been asked to assist in- either research or editing, have been fiction.  Think I will keep it that way.
 

[Annie]

Posted by FA on the "FOTR" thread:

What about the fact that the overwhelming preponderance of the evidence says, including the first hand sources of the time, say Yurovsky was born to Jewish parents.  FOTR relies on ONE unpublished source to wholly dispute this, calling it FACT.  Especially when it is Yurovsky himself, who they also themselves call totally unreliable for OTHER things, ie: the murder itself....SO they themselves rely on their self admitted "unreliable source" to validate the statement as fact.

THIS is the point of discussion...

I would like to ask AGR Bear what she thinks of this.

Bear, you don't believe anything else Yurovsky is quoted as saying, yet you accept this. Can you tell us why this is special?

Bear, you  are a real stickler for verified 'facts' and sources. How do you feel about the accuracy of the claimed source?

I also find it very interesting that many of Ms. Wilson's staunchest supporters have ragged on me for not always being able to produce a source for something I post here, but saying  I 'remember reading it somewhere'.  How is this worse than saying a source was used, but it was inaccurate or can't be verified? They have also accused me of presenting my own speculation as fact (I do speculate but I do not claim it's fact) I want to know what they think about these things apparently being done in a published book, and by someone they admire?

[AGRBear]

I have responded to this question over under FATE OF THE ROMANOVS.

BEAR,

...[in part]... YOU yourself accuse Yurovsky about lying about EVERYTHING, remember?? shall I pull up all your posts where you question his accuracy at every turn?? Suddenly NOW he's telling the truth. Am tired of your baiting people for the sake of baiting and not for genuine discussion.

I did not say that I thought Yurovsky was telling the truth or lying in his unpublished memoirs.

...[in part]...

I don't know enough to have an opinion, yet. 
...

AGRBear

...[in part]....   If he was Russian Orthodox then Yurovsky's didn't lie in his memoirs about his early life.   If his records are in the Jewish records,  then Yurovsky did lie in his memoirs.  ....

So, I have suggested someone go and find his birth records in Tomsk or Omsk or whereever Yurovsky was born.

And,  you're right,  I have been lerry of Yurovsky's various statements long before  my first post on this forum to this one.  And,  I see no problem in asking as many questions as I can to discover through other sources,  how much Yurovsky has told us is true, part true,  misleading,  misinformation and just plain lies.  Afterall,  his testimonies (published and unpublished) are very important in discovering what occurred that eventful night of 16/17  July 1918 when history records  Nicholas II, his family and the others were executed.

So, if you tell me that Yurovsky's birth record tells us that he was Jewish,  then apparently he was lying in his unpublished memoirs, if indeed that is what he wrote. 

I'll have to let you and others find and translate the original to satisfy yourselves about the accuracy of King and Wilson's  translation,  because I'm not in a position to do it myself.

Remember,  I don't care where the truth takes me,  I'm just enjoying the journey.

AGRBear

I don't think it's necessary to carry on this part of the conversation on two threads at the same time,  so, please,  follow the other thread by clicking on the link..


AGRBear

[helenazar]

This is kind of entertaining and within the topic of "Authors' obligations"... 

How to write a misery memoir

 
Yet another tragic autobiography has been exposed as a fraud following rave reviews. John Crace offers tips to writers who want to wring a bestseller out of their dull life story...

Thursday March 6, 2008
The Guardian

Imagine that your parents didn't beat you up, that you were only slightly bullied at school, that you only get pissed from time to time and that you haven't got a fatal illness. How does that make you feel? Inadequate, I should think. Who is going to want to read your life story? Even the market for misery memoirs has its limits and no one is going to be interested in the heartfelt pain of being rather ordinary. But don't let that hold you back. Because if you are really determined to spill your guts, you can. Here's how.  http://books.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,2262445,00.html#article_continue

[Puppylove]

This is kind of entertaining and within the topic of "Authors' obligations"... 

How to write a misery memoir

 
Yet another tragic autobiography has been exposed as a fraud following rave reviews. John Crace offers tips to writers who want to wring a bestseller out of their dull life story...

Thursday March 6, 2008
The Guardian

Imagine that your parents didn't beat you up, that you were only slightly bullied at school, that you only get pissed from time to time and that you haven't got a fatal illness. How does that make you feel? Inadequate, I should think. Who is going to want to read your life story? Even the market for misery memoirs has its limits and no one is going to be interested in the heartfelt pain of being rather ordinary. But don't let that hold you back. Because if you are really determined to spill your guts, you can. Here's how.  http://books.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,2262445,00.html#article_continue

Oh my goodness, I was surprised to see Dave Pelzer included in the article. I read all three books in his A Child Called It series; it never crossed my mind they weren't true because similar cases of barbaric child abuse are in the news all the time. Well, his is one memoir I'd be relieved to discover was pure fiction; one less brutalized child is a good thing.

[AGRBear]

Bear, when the news was released, the experts said they were sure enough it was them that news stories carried it as fact. The headline here on this site read that the remains had been found. The news stories even changed from 'believed to be' to actually found after news conferences with those involved explained how the grave was exactly where recently discovered documents said it would be, that it contained the same bullets and ceramic acid jars as the other grave, and that the remains were a young boy and girl. No, the DNA tests are not back yet, but when the people who found and examined the bones said they were sure it was the right thing, I accept that. Even if they were not able to extract DNA from the burned remains, the fat lady really has sung here, regardless of how you and a few others want to hold onto the dream of the bodies still being missing.(Oh and also don't forget that no other bones were found in the area so don't try to say it was some random Stalin victim) Besides, on the part of my site you quoted above, that bolded sentence about the bodies being found is a clickable link that takes you to my 'missing remains found??!!' section where more detailed info on the story and the evidence is presented for everyone to read and decide for themselves. It has the links to several major media news stories, the thread here, and the SEARCH foundation's press releases.

And if you're going to start picking on my website, I'll answer any questions, because I stand behind what I have written. It is admittedly a mixture of actual facts, info and quotes  from the 'other side' that AA supporters aren't going to tell you, and my own logical explainations of what most likely happened in certain situations. For example, I don't claim to have any 'startling new evidence' that the Schanzkowska family admitted to denying AA, but I do bring up likely reasons why they did and try to piece together what must have went on, now that we know that she was FS, something had to have happened behind the scenes we don't know about and no one is going to tell so we just have to put two and two together. If you want to pick, I can find you dozens of blatant inaccuracies and misquotes on the many pro-AA sites out there on the web, but I don't think this thread was meant to explore websites. But unlike a published book, the websites (theirs and mine) are free to read and no one asked you to pay money for them.

Having once worked in the newspaper world,  I know that news is often times exagerated so people will continue to read what is under the headlines.  Just because the bold tpye words claim something,  doesn't make it a fact.  Just because you are using your logic,  doesn't make it a fact.  Just because you want it to be true,  doesn't make it a fact. 

Until we see the results    shouldn't your readers know that scentifically  the idenity of the two bodies found in the 2 pits in July is not yet established???

You have complete control of your web sites.  You can make changes in minutes.  And,  when the news breaks and it's official,  then you can add this to your site.  It's simple.  It's relatively painless.  And,  it would be truthful.

My comment about your facts have nothing whats-so-ever to do with AA, Kurth, King and Wilson,  it is about what you, Annie, have written.

For those who think my comments are not part of this thread,  let me explain:  Annie's site has been published on the internet.  She is the author.  Therefore,  she is obliged to be accurate just like any author.


Am I wrong or am I right?

AGRBear