historical accuracy/ethics question regarding writing books

[Puppylove]

What you consider wonderings and guessings others may consider a firmly held opinion based on careful examination of multiple strands of evidence. (I have no idea why I can't get this to show up as anything other than a quote, but that's the way it is....J.A.)

My only quibble with this is the FOTR authors presented Marie's death/Anastasia's unknown status as a fact rather than opinion. In my opinion, the book gave enough evidence to the opposite theory to justify withholding judgment on their deaths. Of course all Romanov writers are no doubt guilty of making factual statements about things which later were disproved.

[Puppylove]

Yes, but I didn't say Historian  I said Author...and any ordained by me Expert now can self-publish History! So, the question becomes Should all Authors be held to a Standard if they offer these three criteria!  And its that (1) they believe they hold some knowledge  in this area (2) they think their School of thought or the way they see the conclusion in a certain way is the correct one (3) they offer their own thoughts on the subject ...should they then be held to the same standard?   

Remember they are presenting themselves in a certain way and High School Students cannot differentiate between levels of Academia?  So, my thoughts are Yes or why Self-Publish?

Mari, this is great in theory; no one is arguing your criteria shouldn't be met. However, focusing solely on online "authorship," it's unworkable at this time because of an utter lack of internet regulation or checks and balances of any kind. As long as anyone can set up or post at a website, the onus will be on those high school students to learn very quickly how to separate the wheat from the chaff (as well as on their instructors to give them the tools to distinguish between the two).

[AGRBear]

Yes, but I didn't say Historian  I said Author...and any ordained by me Expert now can self-publish History! So, the question becomes Should all Authors be held to a Standard if they offer these three criteria!  And its that (1) they believe they hold some knowledge  in this area (2) they think their School of thought or the way they see the conclusion in a certain way is the correct one (3) they offer their own thoughts on the subject ...should they then be held to the same standard?   

Remember they are presenting themselves in a certain way and High School Students cannot differentiate between levels of Academia?  So, my thoughts are Yes or why Self-Publish?

Mari, this is great in theory; no one is arguing your criteria shouldn't be met. However, focusing solely on online "authorship," it's unworkable at this time because of an utter lack of internet regulation or checks and balances of any kind. As long as anyone can set up or post at a website, the onus will be on those high school students to learn very quickly how to separate the wheat from the chaff (as well as on their instructors to give them the tools to distinguish between the two).

Then the teachers will have to set up some kind of an "approval" list.  Of course,  the list would be different for  younger children, teens and colledge students.   And,  the group creating these lists would need to have it's own check and balances to make sure that the lists don't become  one sided  but start and remain well balanced, no matter the subject.   

One thing I've learn in 65 years is:  There are only a few things which are impossible to accomplish.  I don't think this task by or for teachers is impossible.

For the rest of us,  we each need to hold ourselves to "high standards".   

AGRBear

[Annie]

One thing going on in schools today is that too often the goal really isn't to teach you something but to teach you how to perform and complete a task. That's why sometimes they don't even care what you use, as long as you learn how to use a source. Some teachers don't even bother to look into them, they just look at the bibliography, okay he/she has three links here, okay, check that one off the list. Kids are also allowed, and even encouraged, to do the work online, making copy and pasting common. One of the main reasons I made my site is because there is SO much false and misleading info out there on AA and AN in homemade websites that there is the real potential for people learning the wrong thing so I felt another view needed to be represented.

On the other hand, there are some teachers who won't accept wikipedia because it can be edited by anyone at any time. When I was in school we had to have at least three sources, one encyclopedia, one magazine article and at least one actual book. This supposedly teaches kids how to utilize various different types of media. In those days, we didn't have the internet, of course, but we did have an extensive collection of old magazines and a list of what was in each one. We were supposed to find the right thing in the right one, and fill out a request form for the libararian to get it out of storage.

[helenazar]

Then the teachers will have to set up some kind of an "approval" list. 

Newsflash: they have. I do this all day, every day, i.e. help teenagers and adults with their research projects, and I can tell you that not all sources are equal according to teachers, no matter whether they are "published" or not... You don't have to be 65 years old to know this.

[Annie]

Then the teachers will have to set up some kind of an "approval" list. 

Newsflash: they have. I do this all day, every day, i.e. help teenagers and adults with their research projects, and I can tell you that not all sources are equal according to teachers, no matter whether they are "published" or not.

That's very good to know! I hope all teachers and schools will do the same.

Unfortunately, this was not my experience when my kids were in school. (graduated in '05 and '07) The standards were pretty lax, until high school AP or Honors English, you could use just about anything.

Things do seem to be tightening up. I heard when the internet was first available, it was common for kids to plaigerize entire reports until teachers wised up and googled paragraphs to see if anything matched!

[helenazar]

Unfortunately, this was not my experience when my kids were in school. (graduated in '05 and '07) The standards were pretty lax, until high school AP or Honors English, you could use just about anything.

In my experience, even in the worst schools the teachers usually won't accept most Internet sources alone, unless they are ".edu" or a reliable ".org". Wikipedia is usually out... They mostly want book sources (not always completely reliable - as we all know) and articles (not always reliable either, but more so than most of the Internet).  Many students (mostly college) have to use peer reviewed material only... I think it's very rare when a teacher would accept Internet sources only, without any reliable corroboration from other sources...

[Annie]

Unfortunately, this was not my experience when my kids were in school. (graduated in '05 and '07) The standards were pretty lax, until high school AP or Honors English, you could use just about anything.

In my experience, even in the worst schools the teachers usually won't accept most Internet sources alone, unless they are ".edu" or a reliable ".org". Wikipedia is usually out... They mostly want book sources (not always completely reliable - as we all know) and articles (not always reliable either, but more so than most of the Internet).  Many students (mostly college) have to use peer reviewed material only... I think it's very rare when a teacher would accept Internet sources only, without any reliable corroboration from other sources...

It depends on the teacher and the grade and the class level. Some did and some didn't. The middle school teachers were mainly looking just to teach them how to use sources and didn't care what it was. They were lazy about grading, sometimes taking them weeks to grade reports so I really doubt they ever checked into anything. They did ask for sources other than internet, but wanted those too. Later, some teachers did just what you said, it had to be an edu. site and no wiki, or no internet at all. Some wouldn't even allow encyclopedias. By the senior Advanced placement or honors English the standards were a lot tougher. I'm just afraid there are a lot of lax and lazy teachers out there letting kids use lame sources.

[halen]

As a 3rd year university student (majoring in history of course), I can assure you that I would get a big F on a paper if I used Wikipeda! This site is a big no no in my course.  I would get and have received A's for using peer reviewed scholary articles, book resources. Profs are pretty good at letting you know in the beginning of the semester what is exceptable and what isn't. If I'm not sure I get in touch with the prof to get confirmation.  We get a session a semester in the library and go through how to look up resources, subjects etc.

[Mari]

Yes, but whether Teachers are lax or whether they have lists isn't my main Point...the main thing is "If you have a Website and publish Historical information" and hold the belief historical Authors should have a very high standard...shouldn't you practice what you preach.?"  Shouldn't you then hold the very highest Standards for yourself and have everything as factual as you can possibly get it ..Website or Book? That is my question?

Online forums and websites come and go like rabbits now, and most should be taken with a gargantuan grain of salt.

Yes, but does anyone on this thread...want to be one of those disreputable Websites? Surely not...surely they want to put out the most honest, accurate information they can. And if your going to take the responsibility of setting up a Website or any form of self publishing then there comes with it an obligation...and it doesn't matter what other Websites are doing...not if you want yours to be credible!

[helenazar]

Yes, but whether Teachers are lax

I think that's an exception not the rule though, but of course that depends. A lot of schools do have a standard, but if the teacher is lax, then students can of course get away with it. Not all students care about standards for themselves, and these teachers should be explaning to them why certain sources are not acceptable. If they fail to do that, then these teachers should befired, IMO, because when their students get to college, they will all end up failing...

[AGRBear]

Then the teachers will have to set up some kind of an "approval" list. 

Newsflash: they have. I do this all day, every day, i.e. help teenagers and adults with their research projects, and I can tell you that not all sources are equal according to teachers, no matter whether they are "published" or not... You don't have to be 65 years old to know this.

Helen,

I thought we were talking about teachers not librarians.  Since you've mention librarians,  it is marvelous that libarians can help direct teenagers and adults to good sources for their research projects. I know I've had some great help through the years by the men and women who work hard in the libraries around the world.

I remember one particular great guy in the library in Europe.  He brought to me a book written by my ancestors born in the 1700s which he had found by going through material that hadn't reached the listings in computers at that point in time.

Anyway,  does anyone know if there are    teachers' or professors' which has reliable iinformation and links on Russian history?

AGRBear

[Puppylove]

Switching gears a bit, I have a question for Robert Alexander and Sarushka, but don't want to muddy up the Romanov Bride thread.

Do either of you, as respected, published authors, feel there is any nonfiction subject matter that should remain beyond the reach of art, or should it all be fair game? I am obviously thinking of Elie Wiesel's assertion that the Holocaust is sacred material drained of substance in the hands of novelists. Do either of you personally regard anything as off limits?

I'm curious to hear the writer's perspective, but of course welcome comments from all....

Thanks, Jenn

[Sarushka]

Do either of you, as respected, published authors, feel there is any nonfiction subject matter that should remain beyond the reach of art, or should it all be fair game? I am obviously thinking of Elie Wiesel's assertion that the Holocaust is sacred material drained of substance in the hands of novelists. Do either of you personally regard anything as off limits?

I don't have any personal restrictions regarding subject matter. I believe you should write with respect toward your subject, but I don't think there are subjects that shouldn't be touched. Keep in mind though, that I've led a relatively short, sheltered life. If I'd led a life parallel to Wiesel's I might well feel differently.

I interpret Wiesel's comment to mean that no novelist can convey the depth and breadth of the holocaust experience. He's probably right. However, if even what Wiesel would regard as a feeble representation can affect a change or create understanding in a reader, I think it's still worth writing. We may not be able to make people fully understand, but we can perhaps make them want to prevent history from repeating itself.


Incidentally, IMO non-fiction and memoir fall within the realm of art. Anything that is written to express or evoke emotion or empathy is art, even if it consists entirely of facts.

[Louis_Charles]

I also think that during the 20th century we were too close to the event itself to gain anything like perspective (which IMO is a component of art). Holocaust studies and literature didn't really appear in large numbers until the 1960s, and even then there were problems with it, since the immensity of the event made it difficult to approach. I am thinking of the alterations to Anne Frank's diary in its' published form, to say nothing of the dramatic shaping given it by the play and subsequent movie.

So yes, I would agree with Wiesel that there are some events which should not be approached. Perhaps not forever, but not while they are raw.

Simon