Author Topic: Memorial  (Read 17191 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Natasya

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 73
  • I like Russia, history, and Russian history.
    • View Profile
Memorial
« on: March 21, 2008, 06:40:00 PM »
I found an Alexei website, tsarevichalexei.bravehost.com, and in a section, there were pictures of little stone memorials made in forests for him.
I think this kind of a neat idea, and I wanted to see what others thought of it.
A proof is a proof and when you have a good proof it's because it's prooven.
-Jean Chretien

Offline lulururu

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 40
  • History is my passion !
    • View Profile
Re: Memorial
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2008, 08:54:24 AM »
Hi, that's interesting but where did you find these pictures exactly ? Because I'm looking at pictures in an album which gathers more than 1000 pics ^^

Edit : http://tsarevichalexei.bravehost.com/birthday.htm
Are you speaking about these memorials ? Personally I have no opinion about that because it's what he wanted in 1912 and we don't know at all what would have pleased him in 1918 because the family's death was violent and totally unexpected, I really don't think Alexei thought about (violent) death and memorials in July 1918 and he may have wanted something completely different from the memorials he wanted in 1912. Nevertheless, I think it's very respectful to build this kind of stone and wood monuments.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2008, 09:14:45 AM by lulururu »

Offline Natasya

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 73
  • I like Russia, history, and Russian history.
    • View Profile
Re: Memorial
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2008, 04:36:28 PM »
Those are the ones.
Yeah, I can't say it was his last wish, but yeah I thought because it connected to the 1912 thing it was a good idea.
A proof is a proof and when you have a good proof it's because it's prooven.
-Jean Chretien

Offline lulururu

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 40
  • History is my passion !
    • View Profile
Re: Memorial
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2008, 08:33:20 PM »
Yes that's true, I think it's very respectful but if I really want to respect the tsarevich (and give a part of my life to him) I would make a whole movie about his life and dedicate this movie to him ! Of course it seems ridiculous and it's a dream because I'm not a movie director (but it would really interest me), I don't think Warner Bros., Universal or even a little cinema studio would help me and the spectators would not necessarily watch the movie but in fact I don't care, I wouldn't make this movie for money but only because the tsarevich interests me a lot and in order to instruct ! Everything would be true and checked by several specialists, biographers and nothing would be hidden to the spectators (not even the crisis of hemophilia in 1912 nor the execution in 1918 and the 2 bullets in the head !). In fact, history is extremely important to me and I think that hiding violent facts isn't always a good thing (in a realist and historical context) and I'm not one of these guys who thinks that when someone sees a violent scene he wants to make the same thing... I would also want every details to be extremely realists : every protagonist's face would be made by a computer program and by computer scientists helped by hundreds of pictures representing Alexei (and his family) when he was 1, 2, 3... 12, 13 and almost 14 ; all the protagonists would speak in Russian (with subtitles) and I don't want to "cheat" with the spectators' emotions with a melancholic music (I really like music in films but I think it's really too easy - but not realist at all ! - to move the spectators with it) simply because in reality there wasn't music (lol) and because I think that a good movie about the Romanov should move the spectators "without" that kind of "emotional artificiality".
Well, even if the tsarevich probably didn't even realize that movies could be used as biographies (about some important persons or himself !), I think it's extremely respectful and a huge homage to tell his history with as much details as possible (even if some persons think it's disturbing, which can be understandable).
« Last Edit: March 22, 2008, 08:40:34 PM by lulururu »

Offline Natasya

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 73
  • I like Russia, history, and Russian history.
    • View Profile
Re: Memorial
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2008, 03:23:48 PM »
I'm always waiting for someone to make a realistic movie, and I agree, history should be told as it was.
A proof is a proof and when you have a good proof it's because it's prooven.
-Jean Chretien

Offline lulururu

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 40
  • History is my passion !
    • View Profile
Re: Memorial
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2008, 07:35:33 PM »
Indeed it seems very interesting but imagine the cost of such a movie : it seems impossible to tell Alexei's history without showing him playing on the Standart or in captivity in Tobolsk and in Ekaterinbourg and rebuild the imperial yacht and the houses would be extremely expensive ! But if we want this movie to be as much realistic as possible we must totally rebuild these "things" ! Well, in fact this movie project would be aborted since the beginning of its development ^^
« Last Edit: March 23, 2008, 07:39:03 PM by lulururu »

Offline skitzo12

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 56
  • umm yeah....
    • View Profile
    • my website
Re: Memorial
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2008, 08:45:21 AM »
a beutiful idea...
we must do what we think right to honour our hero's, mentors, idols and family in a way appropriate and correct tof their wishes....
i know i shall build one of these im my back yard...

Offline Vive_HIH_Aleksey

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 345
  • Alexei Yagudin, Evgeni Plushenko: Tzars of the Ice
    • View Profile
    • Desire: A Figure Skating RPG
Re: Memorial
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2008, 04:00:59 PM »
Yes that's true, I think it's very respectful but if I really want to respect the tsarevich (and give a part of my life to him) I would make a whole movie about his life and dedicate this movie to him ! Of course it seems ridiculous and it's a dream because I'm not a movie director (but it would really interest me), I don't think Warner Bros., Universal or even a little cinema studio would help me and the spectators would not necessarily watch the movie but in fact I don't care, I wouldn't make this movie for money but only because the tsarevich interests me a lot and in order to instruct ! Everything would be true and checked by several specialists, biographers and nothing would be hidden to the spectators (not even the crisis of hemophilia in 1912 nor the execution in 1918 and the 2 bullets in the head !). In fact, history is extremely important to me and I think that hiding violent facts isn't always a good thing (in a realist and historical context) and I'm not one of these guys who thinks that when someone sees a violent scene he wants to make the same thing... I would also want every details to be extremely realists : every protagonist's face would be made by a computer program and by computer scientists helped by hundreds of pictures representing Alexei (and his family) when he was 1, 2, 3... 12, 13 and almost 14 ; all the protagonists would speak in Russian (with subtitles) and I don't want to "cheat" with the spectators' emotions with a melancholic music (I really like music in films but I think it's really too easy - but not realist at all ! - to move the spectators with it) simply because in reality there wasn't music (lol) and because I think that a good movie about the Romanov should move the spectators "without" that kind of "emotional artificiality".
Well, even if the tsarevich probably didn't even realize that movies could be used as biographies (about some important persons or himself !), I think it's extremely respectful and a huge homage to tell his history with as much details as possible (even if some persons think it's disturbing, which can be understandable).

(I have to break this up into two posts LOL)

Apparently you have never seen a film with the works of Maurice Jarre, Nino Rota, George Fenton, Patrick Doyle, Thomas Newman, Alan Silvestri, Elliot Goldenthal, Howard Shore, Trevor Jones, Randy Edelman, John Barry, Mark Isham, James Horner, Ennio Morricone, Elmer Bernstein, Gabriel Yared, Michael Kamen, James Newton Howard, John Debney, or John Williams. These composers are famous for doing historical epics, or historical fiction, and were acclaimed highly for their efforts. (Jarre: Doctor Zhivago, Lawrence of Arabia, Rota: The Godfather, Fenton: Anna & The King, Doyle: Henry V, Newman: Road To Perdition, Silvestri: Forrest Gump, Goldenthal: Michael Collins, Shore: Gangs of New York, Jones: Richard III, and he and Edelman corresponded together for The Last of the Mohicans, Barry: Dances With Wolves, Isham: Bobby, Miracle, Eight Below, Fly Away Home, Invincible, The Black Dahlia, Men of Honor, Horner: Apollo 13, Braveheart, Troy, The Perfect Storm, The Four Feathers, Glory, Titanic, The New World, House Of Sand & Fog, A Beautiful Mind, Morricone: The Mission, Bernstein: The Ten Commandments, Yared: Cold Mountain, The English Patient, Kamen: Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves, Newton Howard: Hidalgo, Charlie Wilson's War, Michael Clayton, Blood Diamond, Freedomland, From The Earth To The Moon, Wyatt Earp, Alive, Debney: The Passion Of The Christ, Williams: Saving Private Ryan, 1941, Seven Years In Tibet, Munich, Memoirs Of A Geisha, The Patriot, Empire Of The Sun, Schindler's List). I think you should be more educated in the film score field before making such a drastic mistake if such a movie were to get off the ground. Unfortunately, Rota, Bernstein and Kamen are deceased now, but the others are still around and quite eager to be a part of such a powerful project. Williams and Horner in particular should be intriguing possibilities, because of their extraordinary work on Apollo 13 and Schindler's List. I guess you haven't seen Schindler's List, but that is the direction you want to go when making a historical movie, it's sheer perfection, and the score works extremely well with it. Before making such a rash judgement, I advise you see Schindler's List.
Hatred – this is a disgusting feeling. Yes, there is sport gambling, there is a striving to win. But to hate someone – this is awful! I think, that first of all you have to learn to respect your rival. -- Evgeni Plushenko

Offline Vive_HIH_Aleksey

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 345
  • Alexei Yagudin, Evgeni Plushenko: Tzars of the Ice
    • View Profile
    • Desire: A Figure Skating RPG
Re: Memorial
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2008, 04:01:50 PM »
(continued from before)

Well, those are the composers that I personally would pick, but I don't know about the rest of the score community. Some might suggest Danny Elfman, but I honestly don't think he would have the education for such an undertaking. Horner, he certainly has what it takes, but if you listen to Braveheart and then Titanic, you can tell he is kind of unoriginal. However, he can create gems when he is on, as evidenced by Apollo 13, Glory, The New World (trust me, to hear the actual score, do NOT watch the film, buy the CD, because very little of it is in the film), House Of Sand & Fog, and The Four Feathers. Many of these have strong historical accuracies in their music. In fact many of the works above are loaded with historical accuracy. My main objection is Horner's Troy. Granted, he only had 6 weeks to write and record it, but the director should never have rejected Yared's score in the first place. It was full of accuracy and raw power. The movie would have been much better if he had kept the score by Gabriel Yared. Now, Gustavo Santaolalla composed music for The Motorcycle Diaries, HOWEVER I DO NOT RECOMMEND HIM. A story of this magnitude doesn't seem to suit his talents, as evidenced by his poor work on Babel. I do enjoy his work on Brokeback Mountain, but as I said, he would be the last choice I would recommend for this project. Another name you'll probably hear thrown around is Hans Zimmer, who did some great work on Tears Of The Sun, The Thin Red Line, Pearl Harbor, and Gladiator. But I have to have a score that is original, powerful, accurate. Zimmer.. his talent varies from magnificent to outrageously awful. His best work, however, does contain authentic sounds, and that is The Da Vinci Code. In that respect I would agree with the recommendation, but go to the others first before going to him. Still another name is Harry Gregson-Williams, who did a fantastic job on Kingdom of Heaven. I would go to him before I would go to Zimmer. But sadly, both of them can be a tad repititious and unoriginal. The two worked together for the composer group Media Ventures, along with such well-known composers as Lisa Gerard, Trevor Rabin, and Nick Glemmie-Smith. I'd stay away from them until you got a chance to hear what the other composers have to offer you. Another name, and he is highly recommended, is Craig Armstrong. His historical pieces are primarily The Quiet American and Elizabeth: The Golden Age. I think he could have what it takes to score this film. His music, along with Thomas Newman and James Horner, brings tears to the eyes of those who hear it. The Quiet American is of particular interest, because of its sublties. I think that could serve the film well.

Hmmm, offhand those are the composers, like I said, that I personally recommend checking out. I'm of the mind the general score community would agree with me, though some would praise Zimmer more and jeer Santaolalla, because of his use of simple compositions and lack of a full orchestra (he primarily uses a guitar and string ensemble). To close, I think a little more education in this area would certainly serve you well. If you have any questions, I'll be more than happy to help you, or direct you to some fellow collectors who can also help if I can't.
Hatred – this is a disgusting feeling. Yes, there is sport gambling, there is a striving to win. But to hate someone – this is awful! I think, that first of all you have to learn to respect your rival. -- Evgeni Plushenko

Offline lulururu

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 40
  • History is my passion !
    • View Profile
Re: Memorial
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2008, 05:29:47 PM »
Wow ! It's clear that you have a better knowledge of film musics than me but I think you didn't understand what I meant. I wasn't saying that music in films is a bad thing (I admit that my previous post wasn't very clear). I love historical movies like Gladiator, Titanic, Schindler's List, etc and their wonderful scores but in fact what I would like to make is a kind of documentary, not really a film, it would be a "perfect" biography. I'm saying that the only music you would hear in this movie would be the real music (there may have been music during the christening of Alexei, during ceremonies, receptions etc) and the only "music" you would hear at the end of the film would be the gunshots during the slaughter, not a wonderful melancholic music. In that film, Alexei would look like Alexei and speaks Russian while in Schindler's List, Oskar Schindler looks like Liam Neeson and speaks English (or French, or German, etc), do you understand what I mean ? I want this movie to be extremely close to the reality !
"His music, along with Thomas Newman and James Horner, brings tears to the eyes of those who hear it", in fact your sentence shows exactly what I don't want in "my" movie... the only thing that could bring tears to the eyes would be what you see and not really what you hear because I think that in a biography or a historical film (very close to the reality) music cheats with our emotions. In my opinion it's too easy to move the public with music (I'm not saying that it's easy to make a wonderful score).
In fact, this film/biography/documentary would be so close to the reality that it may bore the public but I don't care, it would be one of the most realistic movie about the imperial family and the tsarevich !
« Last Edit: May 03, 2008, 05:44:13 PM by lulururu »

Offline lulururu

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 40
  • History is my passion !
    • View Profile
Re: Memorial
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2008, 06:22:05 PM »
here are the 2 videos of the documentary which made me realize that music can cheat with our emotions : look at the whole videos (it's not long) and you will understand what I mean when the first video reaches 1:45 and when the second reaches 1:47
http://news.webshots.com/video/3088057050038578487gdVgIR
http://news.webshots.com/video/3051374600038578487BUFRtB
in fact in that kind of documentary it doesn't really bother me but in a whole movie which is supposed to tell the real story of the imperial family and the tsarevich it would bother me...
« Last Edit: May 03, 2008, 06:27:20 PM by lulururu »

Offline Vive_HIH_Aleksey

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 345
  • Alexei Yagudin, Evgeni Plushenko: Tzars of the Ice
    • View Profile
    • Desire: A Figure Skating RPG
Re: Memorial
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2008, 10:21:05 PM »
Ahh, I understand what you mean now. Then instead of Schindler's List, here is a film, termed as a documentary, that you MUST see: Apollo 13. I direct you to the Filmtracks.com review that contains quotes by Horner:

Quote
Not often does a film with all the traits of a historical documentary stir up such popular interest, but a remarkable collection of cast performances, outstanding special effects, and a variety of awards recognition assisted Apollo 13 in its journey to mainstream acceptance. One of the film's more obvious elements was its music, with an intelligent collection of 1960's pop songs selected for inclusion in the film. Above and beyond that source usage, James Horner's rather short Oscar-nominated score (clocking in at about an hour in length) served as patriotic inspiration for many of the film's more exciting scenes. The year of 1995 was a most impressive one for Horner; fresh off of the overwhelming popularity of the superior Legends of the Fall, he produced two above-average scores for children's films, Balto and Casper. Next came his two Academy Award nominated gems, Braveheart and Apollo 13, and while the legacy of Braveheart has persisted and eventually overshadowed Apollo 13 to a great extent, debates continue within the soundtrack community about which of the two is actually a better fit for its film. In this regard, Apollo 13 triumphs, partly because it works while restraining its understated patriotism so well, and partly because of the film's vastly more intelligent design. There is really no way to appreciate Horner's music fully without also appreciating the high quality of the film itself. The composer's heroic theme epitomizes the patriotic American spirit, and its sincerity and raw, dedicated, and serious power drives the score with the perfect feel of a respectful historical documentary.

As Horner stated in early 1995, "If you start off with a big score, it sets an audience up for just another sci-fi movie... except Apollo 13 is a documentary; you know where it's going to end. What I'm trying to get out of the story is the idealism." And the distinction between fantasy and stark reality is very strong in Apollo 13. There are indeed moments of whimsical wonder for the dreams of great space exploration, but the score never deviates from the dark and occasionally frightening realities that the dangers of space travel present.

James Horner quote from an article published in the L.A. Times (February 13, 1995):


"If you start off with a big score, it sets an audience up for just another sci-fi movie, except Apollo 13 is a documentary; you know where it's going to end. What I'm trying to get out of the story is the idealism, everything that was great in the guys at Mission Control and in the capsule, the best thing about NASA. And that's a very elusive thing to bring out with a flute, but that's what I want--idealism, in a very different way. If I go with something you don't expect at all, it'll be just magical. My trick is that the films are all so different. I have no high ambitions to win 35 Academy Awards. I just try to be the best at what I can be and work on the best movies I can and not get too wrapped up in the day-to-day ups and downs of it, which is difficult enough."

Clearly, you need much more education in this field.. I don't know, maybe it's your age, but then I am only 8 years older than you. But something is definitely off with your false assumptions. See Apollo 13, instead of Schindler's List. Or, if you want to go about an actual documentary, then try From The Earth To The Moon, as it is an actual documentary in which everything is accurate, but they still used James Newton Howard's and others' music. Overall I think you're being pretty naive about this.

Perhaps I can also direct you to this thread on filmtracks' forum, it is about documentary scores and should prove to be helpful to you:

http://www.filmtracks.com/scoreboard/index.cgi?read=13159

The pieces used in the videos you provided seem to merely be classical pieces, not music written for the videos. I can understand being misled with your limited education on the subject after seeing these videos. That is unfortunate. Take it from an expert, that is no way to approach this. Keep in mind, audiences are not as analytical as they were in 1931, when the first fully-talking film was made, and no music was added because the filmmakers thought the audience would wonder where the music was coming from. Now, we accept music in film, and the cinematic world is a far better place for it. I can provide examples but I need time to gather them and make them.
Hatred – this is a disgusting feeling. Yes, there is sport gambling, there is a striving to win. But to hate someone – this is awful! I think, that first of all you have to learn to respect your rival. -- Evgeni Plushenko

Offline Vive_HIH_Aleksey

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 345
  • Alexei Yagudin, Evgeni Plushenko: Tzars of the Ice
    • View Profile
    • Desire: A Figure Skating RPG
Re: Memorial
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2008, 11:12:04 PM »
Okay, I didn't make this, a friend of mine did. But this is exactly what I mean. See this MUTED first, then watch it again with the sound, and you'll understand a little better what I am trying to say.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_re2XiVlYIs
Hatred – this is a disgusting feeling. Yes, there is sport gambling, there is a striving to win. But to hate someone – this is awful! I think, that first of all you have to learn to respect your rival. -- Evgeni Plushenko

Offline lulururu

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 40
  • History is my passion !
    • View Profile
Re: Memorial
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2008, 06:37:34 AM »
I saw Apollo 13 many years ago and this music is beautiful but it's not what I want in "my" movie... I really like that kind of historical movies with very good actors and wonderful musics but it's not really what I want IF I make an historical movie.
Concerning my 2 videos I know that the music wasn't written especially for these 2 videos but it shows that music is important in order to make audiences feel something... the Apollo 13 video you gave me shows it very well : when you see it muted you almost don't feel anything while when you see it with music it's really excellent ! That's what I don't want, I want the movie itself to move audiences, not the music !
Audiences ? In fact, I don't care about them, I would be happy if they like the movie but it wouldn't bother me if they don't like it because I know that I would have made one of the most accurate movie about the tsarevich and his family life without any embellishments (for me, music is a very important embellishment). In fact I don't want an embellishment to make audiences feel something but the picture/movie itself !
« Last Edit: May 04, 2008, 06:46:17 AM by lulururu »

Offline Vive_HIH_Aleksey

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 345
  • Alexei Yagudin, Evgeni Plushenko: Tzars of the Ice
    • View Profile
    • Desire: A Figure Skating RPG
Re: Memorial
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2008, 10:52:14 AM »
You really are hopeless. Some people just refuse to be educated, no matter the great amount of evidence that supports me here. The music in Apollo 13 did not make viewers emotional about the music, it made them even more emotional about the event. I've thought a little about other examples I coud show you, and thought of a fictional movie whose music is intertwined with the film. A friend of mine hadn't seen the movie or heard the score, and I recommended it to him last night, and he said he would "listen to it." I told him it was utterly impossible to understand the storytelling in the music without seeing the film FIRST. I told him:

I must give you advice, don't just listen to it, please watch the film first, this really is a score you can't just listen to without seeing the film first, they're intertwined
on album, without seeing the film, I don't think it could be truly understood
I know because I first heard it without seeing the film
I thought, Well, this is nice, peaceful music, but it's nothing special, what's so great about it? then I saw the film, and was amazed by the power it conveyed in the film
I can honestly say that I'd never heard a score like this and respected it so much

The score and film I'm talking about isn't a historical one, it's fiction, but its message holds true regardless. It's Brokeback Mountain. Now, as I said, Santaolalla's simplistic tones may not suit a film about the Romanovs, however, from what you are describing to me, he may actually be the type of composer you want to go to. You'll notice here that the music doesn't come until just the right time, and before that is utter silence. This is proof that music can accent the images, rather than overshadow them, as your misconceptions believe.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=JCOtanyEqAQ
Hatred – this is a disgusting feeling. Yes, there is sport gambling, there is a striving to win. But to hate someone – this is awful! I think, that first of all you have to learn to respect your rival. -- Evgeni Plushenko