Memorial

[lulururu]

"This is proof that music can accent the images, rather than overshadow them, as your misconceptions believe."
I don't want the music to overshadow nor accent the images, I want the images alone because when the tsarevich was born there wasn't any beautiful music in the chamber of the empress, when they died, there wasn't any melancholic music in this little room, etc ! It's extremely simple, isn't it ?! Yes, music could accent the images but in my opinion it would be completely artificial in that kind of film !
"it made them even more emotional about the event"
Of course the music makes the event emotional and move the viewers but it's precisely what I don't want !!!!!!!!! I want the event/pictures itself to be emotional and I don't want the event to be made emotional by the music ! It may be extremely difficult to move the viewers without music but it's what I would like to do

[Vive_HIH_Aleksey]

When Mel Gibson made The Passion of the Christ, he wanted everything to be authentic too. That is why he got John Debney, and Debney used authentic instruments of the time in many parts of the score. But of course he also added a SMALL use of synthesizers, and orchestra and choir, to create the best score of 2004. It was this attention to detail, this passion for accuracy in his score, that earned Debney a well-deserved and long-overdue Oscar nomination. If there were no score, think of what the crucifying scene would have been like. Would it have worked? I highly doubt it. I can't find a video of that but I highly recommend checking it out. Mel was extremely passionate about being accurate and authentic, just like you are. That's why he had everyone speak Aramaic, Latin, etc. Originally, he didn't even want there to be subtitles, he wanted the people to understand what was going on without them. I'm sure he felt the same way about the score too, but whatever changed his mind, ultimately made the film better. That's a film that I am glad I saw, I only saw it once, and I never want to see it again, but its score is one of the best of all time. Of course on album it isn't quite as interesting other than the cue Resurrection... But I digress.

Ahh, your last part is finally starting to sink in, and boy do I have a point for you!

Besides moving the audience, or accenting the images, music can also function in a way that tells what a character is feeling, thinking, how they are motivated when they are not speaking. Many times, a simple look in the eyes is not enough to comprehend what is going on. The clip from Brokeback Mountain is strong evidence of that, as is this next one. Again, this is fiction, but it is the prime example of how music can tell what a character is thinking, when they themselves do not say it out loud. Once again, I advise that you see this muted first, and then with the sound:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=B5-wiVF2UYg

Now, when you saw it muted, what did you think the character was thinking? What was he feeling?

The following scene shows how an orchestra can become a character in the film, a character that is never seen. I tried to find scenes from Babmi as well but could not seem to find them. But that is another film where the music is a character.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=GbJpJBKUf4k

Here is an example of what it is like for a score to be a part of the action on screen. This is honestly the best example in all of cinema that I can give to you at this point. Take note of the screetching strings and think about what that means in the scene. Take note as well that the score doesn't come until just the right moment:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=HAgGotH7R-8

Let's see... that's all I can think of to show you at this time, but I am sure I will think of more soon!

(I am having a lot of fun with this intellectual debate!)

[Peterhof]

I would like to add my little grain of sand to this conversation, which I find very interesting.  I would like to thank both Lulururu and Vive HIH Alexei for giving such great examples of movies to make their points of view.  Anyway, I can tell from what Lulururu said in his last entry is that he pretty much understands the effects music has in movies.

He also clearly expresses the kind of movie he would like to make; a movie as honest and pure as possible although he suggested the use of a newly created technology to replace the actors’ faces with the ones from the Romanovs, with all the reality in it disregarding how strong some scenes may appear and as close as possible to what history tell us.  He also makes the point that he would reject any artificial effect that may affect the viewer into some emotional state.  In other words, regarding sound the movie would include only the actors’ voices and the normal sounds produced by walking or any sounds produced by machines or animals.  If music were used would come from musicians acting in the movie and as a historic fact and not as a score or background music.

In my earlier years I was lucky to get a hold of a Super 8 movie projector and a collection of movies (no sound) and I would play them until my father would threatened me with beating the hell out of me if I don’t turn off that damn machine and come down to eat, for god sake!

Ok that was too much… but my point is that it was up to me to make the state of mind of the actors in those movies, silent movies were more expressive so it was not difficult.  This experience helped me later on to understand better when in movies music was used to create some effect.

The only example I could come up with is the documentary Shoah, although is a documentary but not a movie, there is no musical score or other special effects but the sounds of the surroundings:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AD_GFqDY2sU

One question: Is Lulururu a Hawaiian or Australian name?

[Vive_HIH_Aleksey]

Always nice to welcome a new face in the debate! Ahh, then you surely remember Nosferatu (granted I think this is the full film here)! Despite its lack of sound, it's still the most realistic vampire movie ever made, according to the experts.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MEOsb6CRvNU

This has had a few different scores written/recorded for it over the years, and while the images can somewhat stand on their own, it certainly helps in the long run. You know that in silent days, I heard a story about a film that was shown twice, once with sad music, the other with comical music. During the sad music, the audience cried, and during the comical music, they laughed. Now, I am not trying to degrade pure silence, but he just has misconceptions about music in film and that's why I am trying to educate him. He obviously has limited experience dealing with film music. Music doesn't just function for the audience, it's not just background like it was in the fifties (but that was a glorious time for scores, wasn't it? To Kill A Mockingbird, The Ten Commandments, The Diary of Anne Frank, The Egyptian, and of course Anastasia, which utilized source music a lot yet still managed to produce a wonderful score on its own). It is what the director chooses to make of it. I think this lovely featurette on The Village says it all:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=mz_H9DELewM

Of course, M. Night Syamylan relies on music primarily in his films, and he understands the role it can play. Many times, a movie itself will be awful, but the score is magnificent. The score becomes the characters that are never seen in The Village, regarded to be a bad film by some. However, it is this innovation that earned it an Academy Award nomination. You could see why it is so respected in the clip I provided earlier.

I've al.so heard many people say that the only reason they saw the film The Mission is because of the score. What does that tell you?

Regarding sound effects alone, I don't think that he really understands how sound is produced in movies. I'll give you a hint: very little of it is "authentic." When filming a movie, it is difficult to capture the sound as realistic as possible. Surely you don't expect the sound effects in Pearl Harbor to be 100% authentic. They were either created or enhanced with software that makes the audience feel like they are right in the middle of it. The sounds of Apollo 13's launch were intensified to reflect the camera angles, you can tell that easily. Even the most basic of scenes requires the use of a sound editing room, where they record things that sound LIKE the things that are needed for teh scene, in this case, bullets, and the sounds of bayonets being thrust into flesh. That kind of event no doubt would produce sound, but during filmmaking, you couldn't very well thurst a bayonet into your actors, producing the blood and gore necessary for a scene. You'd need the sound effects people for that, to find something that would make th edisgusting sounds necessary for that. (You know, even though this has little to do with this, I'm compelled to point out that, because of their quest for authenticity, 20 horses were killed during the chariot race sequence in Ben-Hur)

I also don't think he realizes that to make it all authentic, it would have to be filmed entirely on location, and I think we can all agree that that is an impossibility. How would the scenes at the Ipatiev House be filmed if not on sound stages? Is the Governor's Mansion even still standing? Sure, you could get the public and politicians out of the palaces, but that seems a lot to ask, now doesn't it? Apparently you've not seen the film 1408. Look at how authentic it looks, it looks like a real hotel, real hotel room, you'd never know it was filmed entirely on sound stages. (That is also highly recommended for its use of score, by the way. Of course, On The Town was filmed entirely on location, but that is because it was possible, you realize.

1408: Window Scene
http://youtube.com/watch?v=meh9yaJmwx0

1408: "I was just checking if the accomodations are exceeding your expectations."
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kokIHR06kIg

1408: Final Scene: Take note of the lack of score, until just the right moment.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=RUfnB7Xrblc

Take not not only of the sound effects, but how the sound effects work together woth the score by Gabriel Yared.

Those are what I can think of for now, but I will get back here when I get some sleep and think of more. (I'm so tired I'm messing up typing strangely enough.)

[lulururu]

Peterhof, lol I'm French and lulururu is composed of the 2 first letters of my first name (LUcas) and the two first letters of my last name (RUcar)
Well, you sum up very well what I want to say, in fact I would like to go back to the beginning of the XXth century (1900-1918) with a camescope and then show (in 2008) exactly what I've filmed without adding any musics or embellishments, only the pure truth... Of course it's impossible so we would have to rebuild the Ipatiev house, rebuild the Standart and a lot of other things and that's also impossible (unless Warner Bros or Universal gives me 200 millions dollars to make this movie lol). Concerning the sounds I think that there is a huge difference between the accentuation of a sound effect (because this sound seems completely natural in the film, in fact we don't cheat with the viewers at all, it's quite the contrary, we want the viewers to hear this sound just as we would have heard it if we were at that place in 19??) and a score/real musics, it doesn't affect the viewers in the same manner.

[Vive_HIH_Aleksey]

You've obviously not read a word I've written. But I'm not one to give up easily, especially with regards to my greatest passion. Mind you, I only have a small collection of 150 scores and that's not much to brag about, considering most people I know have at least 500 or so. Still, you know absolutely nothing about the nature of filmmaking, it's clear from your words. I've changed my recommendations for composers many times in the past few posts, but the general consensus is that you would need a score from the likes of Horner, Williams, James Newton Howard, Thomas Newman, John Debney, Hans Zimmer (as loathe as I am to recommend him), Harry Gregson-Williams, or Gabriel Yared (primarily). But I think I can amend my recommendation a bit for this one composer who has slipped my mind entirely, and was brought to my attention by some fellow score collectors:

Angelo Badalamenti. This interesting NY native has brought to life the tragedy of WWI in the film A Very Long Engagement (a film from your country, am I correct, lulururu?) Now, I myself am not too acquainted with his works, but I do remember seeing Dark Water and recall how interesting the score was. It was pretty subtle, tonal, that's not what I would have expected for a horror movie. But it fit well with the tone the story set. I also remember The Beach, and how impressive that film was strictly based on his music. I am researching him as we speak, and I must thank you and the friends for the recommendation, he's incredible! Who would have ever thought such simple compositions, such tones, would be so emotional? I honestly wouldn't have given him a second look until we had this debate.

I cannot find any actual scenes of his works, but I find plenty of his music on youtube set to pictures. Still, not the way that the music was quite meant to be used, so I won't share them with you. I only recommend The Beach, A Very Long Engagement, Farenheit, City of Lost Children, Dark Water, and Twin Peaks. Some recommended Mulholland Drive, but the instruments wouldn't really suit a score for a film about the Imperial Family (he uses electric guitar in it).

Okay, it's official, he would be the best man to go to for this. Absolutely phenomenal composer, I can't believe I've not had the pleasure of getting any of his works on album. (Then again, I've only been collecting for 12 years...) When I'm done writing this I'm off to Amazon to add some things to my wish list.

Another composer I think worth checking out is Mark Isham. He has similar tonal influences in his work for Crash, which was really lousy on album, but it worked extremely well in the film (much to my dismay LOL!). Now, his work for Miracle and Eight Below wouldn't be what I would suggest, he would have to push himself and really use something more extravagant to suit the characters of the Imperial Family.. In Miracle, the size of his orchestras varied, as did the tone of his compositions, to reflect the many small miracles that happened before "the big one," so to speak. In the middle, for example, he used a Tchaikovsky-ensemble, as he termed it, with minimal musicians, but still more than he used in the beginning. He wanted to show that things were looking promising, but he wanted to wait before he got the music really grand. In the final cue, The Miracle, he says he used a Mahler-ensemble, which the largest orchestra of the 3 he used in this film. He wanted to showcase the intensity of the game, the direty of the situation when Jim Craig wouldn't get up, for example, the anticipation, the feelings the players must have felt. He also didn't want the orchestra to go into a big crescendo every time the US team scored. There were small moments of joy during that cue, but nothing was intensified until the last goal was scored by Eruzione. For the remainder of the cue, he stuck to strictly percussion, showing how things were not over yet, even though the audience knew the final result, the music still kept them in suspense, and then once the game was officially over, the largest crescendo occured, signifying that the miracle was accomplished. Of course the score and film didn't end there, they had to summarize what happened in the game against Finland, so he continued a minimalistic tone until the end of the film a minute or so later, to serve as background for Kurt Russel's narration. Such attention to detail would suit the film well. Of course, if you took the time, most composers are passionate about the details they need in order to accomplish a desired effect. Even the right orchestra can make all the difference. Adult choirs and children's choirs have different effects on a score as well, as anyone who's heard a Danny Elfman score and paid attention could tell you.

I think we've firmly established my expertise in this area here. You can't disrespect film scores just because of a lousy 2-3 seconds of classical music you heard in a documentary. Just because of that, those lousy 3 seconds, you automatically assume that any film score would be a waste of time. I think I've successfully proved you wrong. But I am always ready to continue this and provide still more evidence (whereas you have yet to produce any others) to the contrary. I've cited Schindler's List, the greatest score John Williams has ever written, in his opinion, Apollo 13, 1408, Troy, Star Wars: Episode IV, The Village, Psycho, The Passion of the Christ, Nosferatu, Crash, and Miracle. I know there are many others, but I am distracted by Badalamenti's scores right now so I will get back to this after I go to amazon.

I've noticed in many documentaries that films of WWI have sound added to them, and it's meant to sound accurate, but there was no sound at that time. Do you honestly expect to find WWI weapons and fire them in the sound editing booth, and add them in the film? Right, I can just see a WWI plane in the sound editing booth being revved up and its weapons shot. Guns would be realistic, though. However, you couldn't shoot them into actual bodies, now could you? You need the sound of a bullet piercing the flesh, as well as ricocheting off of the jeweled clothing beneath, and you need to be educated enough so that you can understand that you can NOT shoot your cast in an authentic way, or you'll be tried for murder. Just how do you expect to get those sounds to seem authentic without killing your cast? Not to mention you would need fake blood and so on. Glad to see you understand at least one thing about filmmaking, you need to rebuild some things, but again, you couldn't film them exactly on location. I'm sure the landscape has changed much over the past 9 decades. I think there's a chapel where the Ipatiev House stood, you surely don't intend to film it there, right? Of course not. But it could be done on a sound stage. You remember (I hope) how passionate James Cameron was about authenticity and accuracy in Titanic, having even the china and carpets made by the same company that worked on the original. It did cost over 200million and Cameron's own salary to make it, yet look at it now. The studio believed in Cameron because he knew what he was doing, so I wouldn't lose hope just yet, but you really don't know what you're doing as of yet. As time goes by you'll become educated and understand how films are made.

[Peterhof]

Thank you Lulururu, I thought you were mixing the Hawaiian Luau and the Australian Rock Uluru.  Not even close.

Great examples Vive HIH Alexei, the use of a score in film lies more in the artistic side than the special effects.  A score placed at the right time does great things to a scene, a remarkable scene that comes to my mind is the final scene from One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDTUdeHGxAQ

Nosferatu is a great example for silent movies; you can tell that the music played sometimes doesn’t match what it’s being shown.  I should add that silent movies did not come with music, silent movies were actually silent and a live orchestra will play music under the screen trying at all cost to make sense.  If the theater could not afford an orchestra they would have at least a violinist or a pianist playing.  In these times, Woody Allen filmed several scenes in the silent movie style; I would suggest this hilarious one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNiHRbEDh-8

But let’s go back to Lulururu’s impossible present to Alexei.  When filming scenes there are a lot of compromises, there are so many factors that could force all those involved to change whatever they had in mind.  How much would he be willing to compromise in making the movie is something I would like to see.  When shooting a scene the microphones are used to capture the actors’ voices only.  Later on during sound editing, the musical score and the special effects will be added.  A scene is filmed several times, from different angles, later during editing a decision will be made as to what shots would be included in the final film.  So the Alexei film would include so many little artificial things that would “contaminate” the pure-truth intension of the film.

In these two Romanov films, I wonder what it would take to recreate them so they would be of Lulururu’s approval:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AJRFG6PtBk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wniSgXR4mWQ

Good night!

[Vive_HIH_Aleksey]

Excellent points once again and well put! I just saw One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest last year (give me a break, I've not even turned 26 yet LOL!) and the ending was absolutely phenomenal, I was crying my eyes out. The score is very effective in that aspect as well, and coupled with the images, it's breathtaking to watch. I also love how most of the movie did not rely on score or music previously written to be meaningful or to get you emotional or interested in the characters and their situation. My favorite scenes were the ones where they had the meetings, particularly when Jack Nicholson is trying to get the necessary votes for the baseball game and the chief puts his hand up at the last second. Chief is definitely one of my favorie characters in cinema. That's definitely one of the greatest films ever made. I also would love to cite 2001: A Space Odyssey, and how its score mostly consisted of classical pieces, like the Blue Danube, to convey its messages. I really admired that about that film (though most of the film was pretty hard to understand for me personally). There are so many ways to approach music in film, it is all in the artistic side of things, you're right. I've not seen it, but I've heard about Ode To Joy being pivotal in A Clockwork Orange. I saw the famous rape scene on television and know I could never stomach the rest of it... But I digress.

I think the use of a live orchestra or live musician would bring a touch of authenticity and realism to a film. When ET celebrated its 20th anniversary in 2002, they premiered it with a live orchestra conducted by John Willikams himself, beginning with an overture, and then played the entire film score during the film with thousands of people in attendance. I have the DVD and there is an option to see it with the live orchestra, along with a lovely featurette about the premiere and the use of the orchestra, and it was such a brilliant concept, considering that a hundred years ago live orchestras and musicians were commonplace. When you see the theatrical release and then the premiere version, you can't really tell a difference because the percision was spot on. John was really worried about percision, making the musicians work fast enough to accomodate the score to the images. But he certainly pulled it off! It's wonderful to know that that kind of art isn't completely gone.

Thank you very much for the recommendations! I'll look into them, he's a fascinating director.

Another lovely film I would like to see in its entirety is City Lights. It seems like such a sweet story. Phantom of the Opera and Intolerance are also films I would like to check out. Let's not forget the originals of Ben Hur and The Ten Commandments. It's hard to top the color talking masterpieces for me personally, but I would love to check them out.

Have you checked out this extraordinary album? I have it on my wish list, it's a tad above my budget for one item, but considering the material, it's worth it. Maybe I'll ask for money for my birthday and buy it:

100 Greatest Movie Themes
http://www.amazon.com/100-Greatest-Film-Themes-SET/dp/B000PAU02S/ref=sr_1_36?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1209054235&sr=1-36

[lulururu]

Vive_HIH_Aleksey, you clearly think I'm an idiot : "you need to be educated enough so that you can understand that you can NOT shoot your cast in an authentic way, or you'll be tried for murder"... Excuse me but I know this, I'm not a filmmaker but I have a brain !
I also know that the Ipatiev house (http://www.peterkurth.com/ROMANOV%20BONES_files/image005.jpg) doesn't exist anymore and that the whole place had been modified (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f1/Yekaterinburg_cathedral_on_the_blood_2007.jpg/200px-Yekaterinburg_cathedral_on_the_blood_2007.jpg)
If I rebuild the Ipatiev house it's for the interior scenes, not for the exterior views which will be made on computer, I think it's logical ! It's the same thing for the Standart. The house of Tobolsk still exists but the rooms have certainly been modified (http://www.tgngu.tyumen.ru/tourism/tourism/en/bitmaps/romanov4.jpg).
Once again, I tell you that I don't dislike the film scores at all ! My favorite composer is Danny Elfman (my favorite film director is Tim Burton) : Batman, Batman Returns, Sleepy Hollow, Mars Attacks, Charlie and the chocolate factory, Serenada Schizophrana, etc. I listen to his musics almost everyday !

Concerning the 2 videos of Peterhof, I would keep these camera angles because we have all the details (faces' expressions, reactions, etc) whereas if I choose another angle I would have to invent the reactions of characters who aren't present on these videos... The "only" thing I would have to do is to create exactly the same setting, add the sound effects (no music/score !), and try to know what the imperial family said ! These 2 scenes would be very detailed in the film because we have almost everything to create it as if it was really shot in the 1910's ! Here is a link of other videos which could be included in the film even if it's extremely difficult to know what they said on these videos : http://www.frozentears.org/Pages/Home.html

[Vive_HIH_Aleksey]

Well, I didn't mean to imply that you were an idiot, simply misinformed, because what you said didn't seem to show you knew much about the filmmaking process.

You know, I've been thinking a lot about rebuilding things, and I forgot all about the Scorcese masterpiece Gangs of New York, and its attention to historical detail. Marty really had the city of NY built from scratch, of course it wasn't in the same locatikon, but it is still perfectly duplicated. If you follow Marty's example, you could rebuild the locations you need in every detail, no one would care where the movie is being filmed (few people do) so you could still create the authenticity you seek.

Well you may not dislike scores but you certainly don't respect them. It is clear from your words that you have absolutely no respect for them.

Elfman is a wonderful composer, great taste by the way.

[CorisCapnSkip]

Back to the subject of memorials, please see this thread:  http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,11202.0.html

[lulururu]

"Well you may not dislike scores but you certainly don't respect them. It is clear from your words that you have absolutely no respect for them."
I assure you that it isn't the case, I may haven't been very clear because my english isn't perfect but I assure that it isn't the case, I really love scores. In fact I said that scores cheat the viewers' feelings but in fact what I meant is that scores accentuate the tragic side (or the romantic side, etc) of a scene which isn't a bad thing but if I make a movie I don't want any scores, that's all.
Concerning the settings, of course I would like to rebuild the whole locations but it would be extremely expensive and finally I think that the exterior scenes (example : in Tobolsk, when the imperial family goes to the church) should be made with computers.
Well, whatever I say, this film is a dream...   

[Vive_HIH_Aleksey]

Haha, you have similar philosophy to George Lucas regarding computers creating scenes.  Remember what I said about Scorcese creating NYC? Well, George stopped by the set one day and said, "You know, they have computers that can do all this work for you."

It's still evident that yyou still don't understand what I am trying to say about scores. I honestly don't know what other evidence I can use to inform you. It seems no matter what I present to you, you still have misconceptions, as evident by your last statement. This debate is getting rather exhausting considering it's one-sided, I'm basically the one presenting all the evidence here.

Ohhh, Coris! What a wonderful thread, I really enjoy reading that! Thanks for calling it to my attention!

[lulururu]

If I have a lot of money to create the whole places where the Romanov lived you can be sure that I'll build them but computers seem to be a great way to create these places if it's really too expensive or too difficult.

What evidence ? You always write several long paragraphs and at the end I don't know what you want to prove, so explain me what you want to prove in a few sentences please. And what are these misconceptions ?

[Natasya]

I can understand why you wouldn't want music. It would be as if it was actually made then and there. It's more of a documentary film...as apposed to one made purely for entertainment.

Back to the subject of memorials, please see this thread:  http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,11202.0.html

Those sculptures are magnificient...I must say especially Anastasia's.