The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.

[RomaFan96]

Were any skulls recovered from the second grave?

[Forum Admin]

Material from the grave discovered in 2007.

Fragments from ten samples out of 44 were selected for DNA analysis: nine bone fragments (cranial, pelvic, scapular, or femoral) and one-half of the crown portion of a molar. It was determined that the tooth fragment would likely produce a DNA profile; however, we decided to preserve the material rather than destroy it during testing.

[RomaFan96]

All the forensics seem to show that GD Anastasia was burnt with the Tsarevich not GD Maria, IMO. Due to her small size, of all the female victims, GD Anastasia's are the least likely set of remains to have been mistaken for the Empress or Anna Demidova, regardless of post mortem damage or changes even by persons who had not known the family and suite in life. GD Maria could however more plausibly have been mistaken in those conditions for her mother or Demidova but the only problem with that is the 'forensics' dont support it IMO.

In his Note Yurovsky stated that he selected the two 'smallest bodies for burning.' If this is to be belived then we can come to the conclusion that it was Anastasia who was burned, if  Yurovsky's account of Anastasia's size is correct. Demidova and the Empress were fully grown women and tall at that point so it's highly unlikely that Yurovsky would label them as 'small'. The same could be said for Maria. Maples suggested that Anastasia was around 5ft 2 at the time of her death which would have made her the smallest in the Imperial Household after Alexei.

It's unfortunate that the scientists were unable to determine the height of the female found in 2007 due to the lack of skeletel material (and the absence of any leg and/or arm bones) as this could have been a more accurate factor in determining which Grand Duchess was in the grave.

[Ortipo]

In his Note Yurovsky stated that he selected the two 'smallest bodies for burning.' ...

I'm not seeing a reference to Yurovsky selecting the two "smallest bodies for burning" at this source - http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/YurovskyNoteEnglish.html

What I am seeing is this:

 "...Exhausted. Without sleep. Began to get agitated: Any minute we expected the Czechoslovaks to seize Ekaterinburg. Had to find another way.
I decided to make use of the swamp. And burn some of the corpses. Unharnessed the horses. Unloaded the corpses. Opened the barrels. Placed one corpse to test how it would burn. The corpse charred relatively quickly, then I ordered to start burning Alexei. At this time [they were] digging a pit. The pit was dug in the swamp where the cross ties were layered. Dug a pit about 2 ½ arshins deep, three arshins square. It was just before morning. Burning the rest of the corpses was not possible because again the peasants began to come out for work, and for that reason we had to bury the corpses in the pit. Laying the corpses in the pit, doused them with sulfuric acid, with this ended the funeral for Nikolai and his family and all the rest. Laid the cross ties on top. Leveled it. Drove over it. Firm. Near the spot where the corpses were burned, we dug a pit right there,  laid  the bones in there, lit the fire anew. And swept the traces..."

[Ortipo]

Were any skulls recovered from the second grave?

Yes - in the video I mentioned on page 11 of this thread.

[blessOTMA]

Vanya

I cannot speak for anyone else here, but I think we are generally agreed that there is a degree of conflicting evidence. Maria and Anastasia were close enough in age for there to be room for doubt over which was which on the basis of the teeth.

I do take Maples' train of logic seriously, though my entirely personal and gut feeling is that I would prefer the fourth Grand Duchess to be Maria. This is for the entirely unscientific and unhistoric reason is that by the time the results from the first grave were published I was utterly fed up with the Anna Anderson saga and AA's deluded supporters and would have preferred to have had any possible loose threads in relation to Anastasia's undoubted death in 1918 tied up.

Ann

Ann that's  funny, a friend of mine  who  quite learned on these matters says that why the Russians always insisted it was Maria! : to shut up  Anna Anderson! lol

[RomaFan96]

Were any skulls recovered from the second grave?

Yes - in the video I mentioned on page 11 of this thread.

Thanks for clarifying!

[RomaFan96]

In his Note Yurovsky stated that he selected the two 'smallest bodies for burning.' ...

I'm not seeing a reference to Yurovsky selecting the two "smallest bodies for burning" at this source - http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/YurovskyNoteEnglish.html

Sorry, my mistake. I'm certain I read somewhere that he decided to burn the two smallest bodies and I thought Yurovsky himself noted that down. I'll try to locate the reference.

It's interesting how he thought of burning all 11 of the corpses when combustion can actually protect a body from destruction. An experiment which was carried out on the 'Finding Anastasia' documentary showed that it was impossible to completely burn even two bodies in an open air fire. The bodies would have to burn for about 52 hours to become ash.

[Kalafrana]

'It's interesting how he thought of burning all 11 of the corpses when combustion can actually protect a body from destruction.'

But Yurovsky wasn't a scientist, and he was in a hurry, and quite possibly this was the first time he'd ever had much to do with dead bodies. He would know as a matter of common knowledge that bodies which are buried take a long time to decompose. He needed to destroy the bodies completely and make them unrecognisable. For a layman, burning makes an obvious possibility.

Ann

[LisaDavidson]

There were actually several "Yurovsky Notes" and some differ significantly from another. I will need to dig my info out but I believe someone's testimony mentions specifically burning the two smallest.

[Ortipo]

The excerpt I posted came from the 1922 note.  The 1934 account reads (in part)

"...While we rode another plan took shape: burn the corpses. But nobody knew how to do it. Polushin seems to have said they already knew that because nobody really knew how it would come out. I was still considering the mines on the Moscow high road and then transportation. I decided to get carts. The plan came to me at the thought of failure in burying them in groups in different places...  A fire was made and while the graves where being prepared we burned two corpses: Alexei and Demidova. The pit was dug near the fire. The bones were buried, the land was leveled. A big fire was made again and all the traces were covered with ashes..."

http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/yurovmurder.html

[RomaFan96]

I found this quote from another area of the Forum. It is regarding the discoveries of the 2007 bones.

["I have been  told that this tells us that  the Russians are  indicating  the remains of the  female, Marie,  estimated height is 160 cm = 5 feet 2.5 inches  tall and that the male, Alexei,  estimated height  is  142-143 cm  or 143=  4 feet 6.9 inches  tall."


I know this heights were very roughly estimated, but if the Russians believed the female was 5ft 2 in life then I find it odd that they came to the conclusion that it was Maria and not Anastasia. It's well known that Maria was very tall, and the famous picture of the Grand Duchesses taken by Gibbes where they had their heads shaved, conclusively states that she was about as tall as Tatiana. Adding onto this, I find it equally ironic that the skeleton buried under Anastasia was around 5ft 7 - about the same height as Tatiana and Maria were in life.

[Kalafrana]

To judge from late photographs of Alexei (particularly the one sawing wood with Nicholas) he was a good deal taller than 4ft 7 when he was killed. I would estimate that he was about 5ft 4 then - still shorter than Nicholas but not very much. Some pictures taken at Stavka suggest he was about 5ft then (around a head shorter than his father).

Ann

[Sunny]

To judge from late photographs of Alexei (particularly the one sawing wood with Nicholas) he was a good deal taller than 4ft 7 when he was killed. I would estimate that he was about 5ft 4 then - still shorter than Nicholas but not very much. Some pictures taken at Stavka suggest he was about 5ft then (around a head shorter than his father).

Ann

Ann is right, in tobolsk pics Aleksej seems almost as tall as Nicholas; maybe it was difficult (if not impossibile) to take the right height measurements, since his last attack of haemophilia left his leg weak and not perfectly straight, but he was undoublty tall for a boy of 14.

[RomaFan96]

Ann is right, in tobolsk pics Aleksej seems almost as tall as Nicholas; maybe it was difficult (if not impossibile) to take the right height measurements, since his last attack of haemophilia left his leg weak and not perfectly straight, but he was undoublty tall for a boy of 14.

Yes, Alexei took after Alix in his height.