Author Topic: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.  (Read 172261 times)

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Offline mikeycoleman

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Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
« Reply #45 on: July 31, 2008, 11:20:56 AM »
Beltatsar was that very night
Seized by his slaves and killed outright.

Offline Imperial_Grounds

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Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
« Reply #46 on: July 31, 2008, 12:55:33 PM »
That was the one.
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
« Reply #47 on: August 12, 2008, 03:03:00 PM »
The original poem was written by Heinrich Heine.

It is believed that the person who wrote the poem was someone who had higher education and may not have been a Russian, or, if he was had an educated grasp of proper German.   If I can remember where I read this information,  I'll post it.

I do have a question about the DNA/mtDNA.   According to the National Geographic tv program,  the person who was the spokes person for the testing concluded that  the male remains is believed  to be Alexis', and, that the female found is his sibling.   He mentioned that there was a match with the male with Alexandra and Nicholas II, therefore the male is the son of Alexandra and Nicholas II, and, the female is, therefore,  a grand duchess.   Maybe I missed it,  did they show us the proof that there are four different grand duchesses with four individual markers?

We have three markers [I think this is the term to use] of three grand duchesses whose remains were found in the mass grave.  They can be found in Dr. Gill's article:

   

AGRBear


« Last Edit: August 12, 2008, 03:10:18 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline Forum Admin

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Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
« Reply #48 on: August 12, 2008, 04:00:30 PM »
They don't need to Bear.  The female bones found with Alexei are already accounted for in the other skeletons and thus must be a fourth different female individual.

Offline Michael HR

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Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
« Reply #49 on: August 12, 2008, 04:56:54 PM »
I must admit I have made this argument as well. IF there are four individual mtDNA they should able able to show that the are four persons with slightly differant DNA but from the same family and this all four are accounted for and there would be no argument at all. Siblings have very similar DNA but not quite the same. This was if there is four that is the end of it.

It should be quite a simple thing to do. Four remains and four DNA showing same mtDNA but slightly differant DNA patters to each other but members of same family. Chat would burst a blood vessel no doubt!

They don't need to Bear.  The female bones found with Alexei are already accounted for in the other skeletons and thus must be a fourth different female individual.
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Offline Forum Admin

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Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
« Reply #50 on: August 12, 2008, 06:39:37 PM »
Well, several points. One, this will all be wholly moot within a month or so when the full report is released. Second.  mtDNA is far more stable than nDNA, and there may not have been enough nDNA to sequence while there WAS enough mtDNA to sequence.

Frankly, who are we to be second guessing FOUR different teams who all looked at the remains and test results and said "we found them both, both of the missing children."

There is a lot of stuff happening that isn't public. The simple truth is that the two missing Imperial children have been found. They will hopefully soon be at rest with their family.  Nobody survived Ekaterinburg. The other logical implications of this are also correct, if you get my drift.

The "question" of "survivors" is now indeed the "myth of Survivors".


Offline Michael HR

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Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
« Reply #51 on: August 12, 2008, 06:51:41 PM »
I agree but I suspect others won't sadly.
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Offline StevenL

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Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
« Reply #52 on: August 12, 2008, 07:41:46 PM »
I agree but I suspect others won't sadly.

Well, how about forgetting them in their misery and stop calling attention to the existence of their persisting disbelief. It doesn't matter.
No need to bait and/or berate the lingering inhabitants of "Andersonville" here. The case is closed for the rational world, but people are
free to go on believing what they need to believe.

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Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
« Reply #53 on: August 12, 2008, 07:59:41 PM »
Surprisingly Steven, that world will end sooner than later. Can't and won't say more, but trust me, it will.

Offline Michael HR

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Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
« Reply #54 on: August 13, 2008, 03:41:18 AM »
FA, we wait with anticipation.

:)
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Offline angele

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Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
« Reply #55 on: October 10, 2008, 03:10:52 PM »
Im pleased if they can all be together although would have felt happier from 1993 if bones especially recent ones had been carbon dated etc as happens  in other forensic archeology/pathology cases. I suppose also from a practical point of view it also has given some closure to the russian people and indeed some element of  national identity through a shared experience and without wishing to sound sarcastic, which is not intended, it is good for the Ekateringburg local economy
Also read with interest remarks about sophie buxhoevden. i hate being unfair to people but i believe Sydney gibbes had a very low opinion of her which seemed very closely linked to their exile together and wasnt just to do with the loan she gave her which she denied all knowledge of

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
« Reply #56 on: October 12, 2008, 12:17:46 PM »
Im pleased if they can all be together although would have felt happier from 1993 if bones especially recent ones had been carbon dated etc as happens  in other forensic archeology/pathology cases. I suppose also from a practical point of view it also has given some closure to the russian people and indeed some element of  national identity through a shared experience and without wishing to sound sarcastic, which is not intended, it is good for the Ekateringburg local economy
Also read with interest remarks about sophie buxhoevden. i hate being unfair to people but i believe Sydney gibbes had a very low opinion of her which seemed very closely linked to their exile together and wasnt just to do with the loan she gave her which she denied all knowledge of

A couple of points, carbon dating has a certain usefulness in archeology but is in general less reliable in identifying remains than DNA testing. So, you and we should pay close attention to what the DNA testing does and does not say.

As to the citiizens of the Urals, especially Ekaterinburg, I have been often told that there is a sense of shame about what happened especially to the Imperial children there, and now there is a desire for atonement.

As to Gibbes and Buxhoeveden, kindly discuss them in the Friends and Servants section - we do allow a bit of latitude here as to being on topic but you are stretching that way too far!

Offline Imperial_Grounds

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Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
« Reply #57 on: October 12, 2008, 01:56:07 PM »
To be honest the story, for me personal, will only be really closed as soon as the remains are lying at rest with the rest of their family, and when Ella will be buried in the convent(I've heard she expressed her wishes to be buried there), but sadly enough the reburial of the children and Ella can take years, and there is no way to be sure if Ella will be taken back to Russia in time
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Offline tom_romanov

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Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
« Reply #58 on: October 12, 2008, 02:35:12 PM »
didn't that happen with MF ? wasn't almost 80 years before she was buried back in Russia? i have an article on it that i took form a magazine - i'll post it if anyone wants it

Offline Imperial_Grounds

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Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
« Reply #59 on: October 12, 2008, 02:42:05 PM »
Yes, the The Late Douariere, MF was reburied in Russia in 2006 if I recall correctly, there was a report in the news back then too, I taped it and it has to be here somehwere:p
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