Photos of the 1991 bones

[tom_romanov]

The "final" word from the Russians was that body 5 was Tatiana and 6 was Anastasia.

Here are schematics of what bones were found in the 1991 grave.  Other than Kharitonov, the pelvises are pretty much there!

that would make sense with tatiana being body 5 being as if you look at the pictures that mikey has posted body six has bone missing below the right eye- which was apprently the exit wound of the bullet that killed her.

[Sarushka]

It was always said girl/skull no. 3 is Olga, if I am correct, feel free to correct me!

Yes, I think that may be the only one that everyone agreed upon... Which makes sense, I suppose, because Olga was the oldest, so there could be something more distinct about it. But that's still not 100% accurate IMO, although based on forensic and biological evidence it is most likely.

Also, the distinctive size (large) and shape (round) of Olga's head played a role in designating her as skeleton #3 for both teams. ; )

[nena]

I agree different accouts are very helpful for indentifying remains, in this example, we know, as Tom mentioned, Tatiana was killed with bullet through her head. Also, there is no doubt about skeletion # 3. 

[tom_romanov]

on the drawing of the skelton's if the black is supposed to be missing bones- they all have no feet.

[Michael HR]

Maybe as they are small bones with the effect of the acid on them? Odd though

[helenazar]

It was always said girl/skull no. 3 is Olga, if I am correct, feel free to correct me!

Yes, I think that may be the only one that everyone agreed upon... Which makes sense, I suppose, because Olga was the oldest, so there could be something more distinct about it. But that's still not 100% accurate IMO, although based on forensic and biological evidence it is most likely.

Also, the distinctive size (large) and shape (round) of Olga's head played a role in designating her as skeleton #3 for both teams. ; )

Yes, true.   

I was also talking about the rest of the remains, they studied the fusion of the bones, etc. I believe they matched up the body parts with the skulls to see which belonged to which...

[AGRBear]

No, no.  That's not what I meant at all!

I thought Annie was needing to check that all the pelvises (pelvi?) were there to debunk the theory that one of them had been rmoved from a large grave body to salt the smaller grave.

Annie?

Mikey

If I may,  I'd like to correct Annie's little rumor which has taken up as being a fact, which it is not.  Over on the royal forum some of us were discussing  the National Geographic special in which it was mentioned that it was important to prove that there were four grand duchesses, not just three to prevent the theory that bones had been taken from the mass grave and planted in the two pits found a year ago, July 2007.
Annie claimed the scientists used the pelvis bone for the testing of the DNA/mtDNA.  And,  I thought it was important that a test be made with each pelvic to prove there are four individuals  with their own markers which can  show us they are all siblings, related to both Alexandra and Nicholas II. 

The National Geographic didn't show us the four markers. 

They did talk very briefly about the female and the male remains being siblings and related to Alexandra and Nicholas II.   And, apparently the scientist believed there wasn't a doubt. 

The other fellow, who was like a detective,  really didn't give us his thoughts and how he came to the conclusion, if he did,  that the remains were Maria and Alexei without using the DNA/mtDNA.

And,  I did ask if the three grand duchesses' pelvic bones found in the mass grave were intact....  Annie mentioned there were photos showing all three grand duchesses which showed us the three pelvic bones were indeed intact.  I asked where these photos could be found.  Evidently she couldn't remember and that is how this thread came to be.

Does anyone know of any such photos?

Thanks.

AGRBear

 

[AGRBear]

on the drawing of the skelton's if the black is supposed to be missing bones- they all have no feet.

Over on the threads about the mass grave,  we talked about the missing bones.  There was a SPECULATION that the bodies had been moved from one grave to another.  The reason for the SPECULATION was due to the fact that the small bones of the hands and feet are often left in the original grave because grave diggers are usually are not meticulous [sloppy] and care little about removing ALL the bones. 

There were no bones found at the Four Brother's Mine so one cannot use the reasoning that the grenades tour them away and were left....

There is scientific proof that the acid did not caused the lost of these bones.

There are several wild rumors, still being talked about.  One is that  people who knew about the mass grave stole bones as souvenirs.  The other is the Romanovs suffered some kind of ritual murder in the hands of the Bolsheviks.  I repeat.  These are rumors.

We do know that too many bones are missing from the mass grave and the two pits.  How do we know?  The scientists have told us this is true.

AGRBear 

[Michael HR]

Dear Bear,

Reading your post made me think of the box that Sokolov sent to the UK and which contained bones. IS it possible that some of the missing bones were in this box? Over the years I had forgotten about this this but came to mind reading your posts.

Michael

[AGRBear]

I should clarify about no bones being found at the Four Brother's mine.  Your talking about the box sent to King George reminded me if it.  The bones in that box proved to be animal bones.  I  believe they were mostly chicken bones which were tracked down to being the chicken which Yourvsky and some of his men had eaten near the Four Brother's mine shaft during their first attempt of burying the royal family and others.  There was, also, the severed finger which is still under debate as to whose it is.  AND, near by were  five male bodies found by the Whites during the early part of their investigation into the "disapearance" of the royal family.  Not much detail has been given about these bodies accept some thought they might have been "Letts".   One rumor,  which I find extremely interesting, tells us that there were five men who were the Romanov rescuers who had failed in their attempt due to their discovery by Yurovsky's CHEKAs. 

I believe my source for the five male bodies is somewhere on this forum because I have mentioned this sometime ago.   At the moment,  I cannot pull it out of my memory bank.  When I do,  I'll post it.

AGRBear

[Michael HR]

Many thanks for that Bear. I did not know about the other bodies and that is interesting. I must get a copy of the Sokolov report as I have forgotten so much over the years.

[AGRBear]

Here is another quote on this same subject of the "box":

I just found Penny's post...I am sorry to be taking up so much space on this board with an old response and I will remove it if necessary, but I couldn't link to just one post, so I guess I will just copy it here:

When Sokolov finished packing it, the box contained:
 
*42 pieces of bone not identified as human
*the severed finger (often described as Alexandra's, but more likely to be a man's -- a colleague identified it as Dr Botkin's)
*Dr Botkin's false teeth
*two small slices of skin
*thirteen "drops of blood" taken from the Ipatiev House and saved in vials (probably scrapings of dried blood)
*several more vials of "greasy earth" which Sokolov thought might contain melted human fat, though this idea is a matter of contention, because the "greasy earth" was gathered at the Four Brothers while the alleged cremations took place miles away
*various pieces of charred clothing, broken buttons, destroyed jewelry and other small artifacts, like those believed to have been the occupants of Alexei's pockets (coins, silver paper, etc)
 
In 1998, Metropolitan Vitaly of ROCOR announced that all the contents of the box were in the walls of St Job the Sufferer in BRUSSELS -- this is in direct contrast to the word of Grand Duke Vladimir Kirillovich who declared in 1971 that the human remains were taken from the box some short time after the box came into his possession in 1931.  He was silent on the final resting place of the human remains, as is his daughter Maria -- and rather understandably so -- but it is most likely that they were buried privately in St Genevieve de Bois as is sometimes suggested.
 
Continuing in 1971, GD Vladimir said that the remaining items in the box were lodged in a bank vault in Paris, where Nazi occupiers broke into them in the 40s, on a search for Imperial treasure.  Nothing appears to have been stolen, however, for when the box and its contents were turned over to the Church of St Job the Sufferer after the War, it looks like everything that Sokolov placed in the box was accounted for -- the Church took photographs of every item in the box and made a careful inventory list before placing them in a larger box and sealing them in the wall of the Church during its construction.  MP Remy, a German film producer (and all-round fabulous man  ) pulled off a stellar piece of research in contacting the Church and requesting that they open their files for him to see the listing and the photographs.  Surprisingly, they complied with this, allowed him to make some copies, and confirmed that there were no human remains within the wall of the Church.  This makes absolute sense, since it is not Orthodox practice to treat human remains in this manner.  Greg and I have seen with our own eyes Remy's copies of this information.  So what is walled up in the BRUSSELS Church are the following items: icons, buttons, hooks-and-eyes, burned pieces of cloth and some pieces of glass vials.
 
As for DNA testing the human remains, there might not be much point in trying:  The fat may or may not be human -- remember that this an area heavily trafficked by forestry workers, soldiers and peasant farmers and fishermen, all of whom frequently built campfires -- and its doubtful that it is the Romanovs' if it is because it was retrieved miles away from the alleged burning site.  The blood scrapings came from the house, and could therefore belong to any one of the victims, and not necessarily the missing children.  The two pieces of skin are a possibility, but only experts might know what sort of state of decomposition they might be in after eighty-five years.  And remember the matter of contamination -- this might in and of itself render the skin unusable in terms of DNA matching.
 
As for the 42 pieces of bone:  The could never be identified as human, and I think that they might represent either Ortino's body or the chicken dinners that were brought out to the guards at the mine -- or some combination of both.

[Beautiful_Anastasia]

The "final" word from the Russians was that body 5 was Tatiana and 6 was Anastasia.

Here are schematics of what bones were found in the 1991 grave.  Other than Kharitonov, the pelvises are pretty much there!

that would make sense with tatiana being body 5 being as if you look at the pictures that mikey has posted body six has bone missing below the right eye- which was apprently the exit wound of the bullet that killed her.

Did these bodies have ribs? From the picture it looks like they don't. I would agree with body 5 being Tatiana. Does anyone know what killed OMA, or what injuries they suffered?
Emily

[Sarushka]

Did these bodies have ribs? From the picture it looks like they don't. I would agree with body 5 being Tatiana. Does anyone know what killed OMA, or what injuries they suffered?
Emily

Many of the smaller bones — hands, feet, ribs — were absent due to trauma and subsequent deterioration.

[Beautiful_Anastasia]

I see. Thank you Sarushka! I remember reading something about a bullet 'creasing Maria's scalp' - would this have shown up on her skull?
Emily