Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor

[zackattack]

I did not believe in John M Karr either.  But I do agree that the Boulder DA must have had very good reasons for going through all the motions and bringing him back to Colorado.  I thought the real stretch was the handwriting analysis of the three letters from Karr's yearbook and the signature on the note.  Trying to tie them together made me laugh.

I wonder how many times the real killer could confess and be ruled out before DNA evidence.  And since there was DNA evidence, why do people still believe that one of her parents could have done it?  Wouldn't they have been ruled out right up front?  Or are people still believeing that it was a murder for hire?

And yes, taking on the personality of another is quite strange, but in AAs case she was looking for love and acceptance and was, as has been stated, pretty harmless.

As for Karr, if he is looking for love and acceptance he is looking in all the wrong places.  The only place he will now end up is in a State Mental Hospital after he is charged with the counts of child pornography that he faces and perhaps that is all he wanted.  To go to a hospital and not to a jail.

One more thought, you know who else his picture reminds me of?  Lee Harvey Oswald.

There's some dispute as to the age of the material the DNA was in, and whether or not the DNA under the fingernails matched the DNA found on the child's underwear.Different sources say different things, I can't quite get it straight myself. And.this may be why people still look at the parents.


 But, my opinion has always been that the guilty party was her brother-accident-with the parents covering for him.

 I think Karr should be in jail, or a mental hospital, for something, not this, but keep him off of the streets!!!

[CorisCapnSkip]

Hey, all!   

I'm mildly surprised but far from astonished at seeing this turn up here.  As for comparisons of John Mark Karr to Lee Harvey Oswald, I thought it the minute I saw him being hustled through that crowd.  Almost immediately, someone here http://groups.google.com/group/alt.true-crime?lnk=lr brought up the comparison, then everyone was saying it.  It was even on the "Dateline NBC" special about the case.

As for Anna Anderson, I brought her case up in one of the discussions, regarding the "Clever Hans" effect and the long email correspondence between the Karr kook and this Michael Tracey clown.  Someone suggested Tracey egged Karr on until Karr said what Tracey was waiting to hear.  Very like certain encounters of the AA kind!  Unlike AA, the DNA in the Karr case didn't surprise me in the least.  I never suspected any chicanery and needed no convincing as I did with AA.  The handwriting angle is interesting.

Annie, I had no idea the woman confessing in the Jeffrey MacDonald case turned out to be a fake.  I brought up that case in a discussion, too.  Thanks for pointing that out!  There was also a person who claimed to have taken a confession of a man in a church who said he was dying and wanted to unburden his soul.  This man claimed to be one of the "four crazed hippies" who killed the MacDonald family.  Of course, he was unidentified so there was only the word of a person who said they heard him confess.  In that case there was some fiber evidence in the form of synthetic blond wig hairs found at the scene, as well as some witness corroboration of other people being in the house that night.  There are also a few things found at the Ramsey house which might indicate an intruder, but much more to indicate an inside job.

What motivation would the Ramseys have for a murder for hire plot?  They certainly weren't hurting for any possible insurance money and didn't need the attention.  I believe one of the three of them killed JonBenét by accident and the other two have been covering up for the guilty party ever since.  Other family members know or suspect the truth but have closed ranks.  It is ALWAYS strange the things people will claim or confess for attention.  There was even a man who claimed to have spoken to an alien survivor of the Roswell, New Mexico, UFO crash!  His family came forward saying he was full of it.   

[helenazar]

I wonder how many times the real killer could confess and be ruled out before DNA evidence. 

I believe that this was the first time that a suspect in this case was taken so seriously as to do DNA testing. I am not sure why, because there doesn't really seem to be any compelling evidence, other than his confession and knowledge of some details about the case, which he could have picked up somewhere (despite the fact that it wasn't supposed to be common knowledge). I don't really know what the DA was thinking, perhaps she was under a lot of pressure to make the arrest...

High profile crimes seem to always attract "pretenders" of a sort.

Precisely! I think that Anderson, and especially Karr, operated under the motto "there is no such thing as bad publicity" .  I suppose that one of the symptoms of this mental disorder, or whatever you want to call it, is that these people just don't want to remain in obscurity, even if it may mean becoming infamous, and this was obviously Karr's take on things. Hence he inserted himself into a very sensational case, on which he had been fixated for years. AA's motivation was bit more harmless, but the premise was sort of the same...

And yes, taking on the personality of another is quite strange, but in AAs case she was looking for love and acceptance and was, as has been stated, pretty harmless. As for Karr, if he is looking for love and acceptance he is looking in all the wrong places.  The only place he will now end up is in a State Mental Hospital after he is charged with the counts of child pornography that he faces and perhaps that is all he wanted.  To go to a hospital and not to a jail.

I hope so, but I believe that child pornography is only a misdemeanor, so not sure how long he will end up being locked up (even in a mental hospital). Pedophilia is not something that can be "cured", just as psychopaths/serial murderers can't be, so they would either have to keep him locked up for life, or give him certain hormonal treatments for life, which is generally not very effective due to non-compliance. The only other option is castration (apologies to those who are sensitive), but of course we don't do that in this country, nor am I proposing it.

So I think that until he actually does something that is considered a real crime (which theoretically he hasn't so far), I am not sure how long he can be kept away from society.... Maybe they will make some sort of an exception in his case since his case has become so sensational. So in a way, it's a good thing it did, otherwise he would have gotten a slap on the wrist and went on his merry way, working as a grade school teacher for many more years.

[helenazar]

It is ALWAYS strange the things people will claim or confess for attention.  There was even a man who claimed to have spoken to an alien survivor of the Roswell, New Mexico, UFO crash! 

 

This is not surprising at all, even if you only base it on the number of royal pretenders, just in the last century (see 'Imperial Survivor Statistics" thread  ), not to mention everything else!

About the Oswald comparison, I can definitely see it too - Karr does have that "Oswaldesque" affect and demeanor. Perhaps it's all part of some sort of a psychological syndrome...

[Annie]

But, my opinion has always been that the guilty party was her brother-accident-with the parents covering for him.

But wasn't the brother only 9 years old?

Still  I do think the family is guilty and it was an inside job. Her body was found in a secret room only the parents knew about, even the kids didn't know.They hid Christmas presents there!

The basement room is the biggest thing that reeks of it being an inside job. Look at all REAL criminal abduction cases- Elizabeth Smart, Polly Klaas, Lindbergh baby- they grabbed the kid and went immediately out the window. The main objective is to GET OUT and RUN. The LAST thing a criminal is going to do is to stay in the house, much less go down into the most obscure part of the house where he could be easily boxed if caught! And how could he make all that noise and have NO ONE hear? Add to that that the amount asked for in the ransom note was exactly the same as the Dad's Christmas bonus ($118,000, not a nice round number) and it really seems something is up. I do not think they meant to kill her, and maybe they had been raping her many times before. It's a sad, sad story.

I think Karr should be in jail, or a mental hospital, for something, not this, but keep him off of the streets!!!

Yes!

And I think he's too skinny to cause an 8 inch break in someone's skull. I never believed him.

[Annie]

Annie, I had no idea the woman confessing in the Jeffrey MacDonald case turned out to be a fake.  I brought up that case in a discussion, too.  Thanks for pointing that out!  There was also a person who claimed to have taken a confession of a man in a church who said he was dying and wanted to unburden his soul.  This man claimed to be one of the "four crazed hippies" who killed the MacDonald family.  Of course, he was unidentified so there was only the word of a person who said they heard him confess.  In that case there was some fiber evidence in the form of synthetic blond wig hairs found at the scene, as well as some witness corroboration of other people being in the house that night.  There are also a few things found at the Ramsey house which might indicate an intruder, but much more to indicate an inside job.

I don't know if she was officially proven a fraud or if they just couldn't find any evidence to  validate her story, but either way, it didn't come to anything. I never heard about the other guy, guess we'll never know the truth on that. I really think McDonald did it and used the Manson family scenario to try to make it believable to the cops. One thing that always gets me about these husbands with wives and/or families murdered is that they always turn up only slightly injiured, like in the arm, while the others are brutally killed. Why are they not hurt badly? Wouldn't they have been even if they had tried to fight the intruders off of their family?

There was a story years ago of four teenage siblings beaten to death by one of the girls' estranged boyfriends. The only boy turned out to be the most brutally wounded, as he had fought very hard to save each of his sisters. Why didn't McDonald do that? Only a few scratches, huh? Could it be he did it himself to look good, like Charles Stuart did when he claimed he was carjacked, but he actually killed his pregnant wife? (by the way, I totally called that one right away, and my husband guessed Susan Smith right away.)

[Robert_Hall]

I confess to being one of the few people in this country who is not really following this story. To me, the whole idea of "child beauty queens/pageants" verged on kiddie porn from the beginning. All I really catch are the headlines and maybe brief articles on BBC.
So, who is Michael Tracey and who is the parallel in the AA story ?
 I also seem to recall that during the infamous Nicole Simpson/Ron Goldman murders & trial that there were claimants to being the true murderer as well.  I think they were all dismissed very rapidly.

[Raegan]

And since there was DNA evidence, why do people still believe that one of her parents could have done it?  Wouldn't they have been ruled out right up front? 

Yes, her parents were ruled out through DNA. Just like this Karr guy was ruled out through DNA, and just like Anna Anderson was proven not to be Anastasia through DNA.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/12/16/48hours/main661569.shtml

[Annie]

There was unidentified DNA at the scene, but as Zack said we don't really know where it came from or how old it was. While it's true it's not the parents', that doesn't prove the parents and/or someone they know weren't involved.The entire thing has every sign of an inside job and not a common intruder. In all these years, they've never found anyone else but  Karr, and he's not the guy. So this may never end.

[Annie]

To me, the whole idea of "child beauty queens/pageants" verged on kiddie porn from the begining.

Yes, her pictures did look disturbingly like kiddie porn, even to this day when you see them you see a little girl fixed up to look like a grown up call girl. This apparently caused someone to have a sick fantasy about her that led to raping and murdering her, as sad and tragic as that is.

[helenazar]

Just a friendly reminder that this thread is not about who killed JonBenet and why, but about the parallels between the Karr case, Anderson case, and other cases like it - i.e. false claims and ruling them out through science.

Thanks! 

[Elisabeth]

As I recall the Boulder police's problem with the DNA found in JonBenet's underwear was due to the fact that the child was not completely potty-trained (or at least had regressed in her potty training, not for the first time) and was known to ask any adult in the immediate vicinity to wipe her after going to the bathroom. Other times, after having had an accident, she was brought home wearing clean underpants borrowed from one of her little girlfriends. All of these factors were what made the unknown male DNA found at the crime scene problematic for those detectives who thought one of the Ramseys did it.

Personally I still have trouble stomaching the ransom note. The War and Peace of ransom notes, as many have called it - what chance is there that an intruder would take the time to compose such a lengthy and detailed ransom note - moreover, with paper and pen belonging to the victim's parents? True, stranger things have happened... I'm trying to keep an open mind.

[Robert_Hall]

While I think this is an interesting discussion, one thing remains clear to me; AA claimed to be the victim of a violent crime, perhaps seeking some sort of fame[?] while these other claim to be the perpetrators of violent crimes, seeking notoriety [infamy]


A rather tenuous link to be sure.
 

I vaguely recall reading some years ago that there were even Hitler claimants at one time![after his death in the bunker]

[Raegan]

The DNA was mixed with this child’s blood and it came from a Caucasian male. It did not match anyone in her family or their circle of friends. The DNA has been put in a national database in hopes of finding a hit, so the DNA is being taken very seriously. I think it is a bit of a double standard for people to go by the DNA to exclude Karr, but then not exclude her parents. Besides, there is quite a bit of evidence supporting the intruder theory, and that first link I posted (the link that provided information that DNA cleared her parents) informs readers about that evidence. In that first link, it talked about another unsolved crime in Boulder that was very similar to JonBenet’s case. A man broke into a home a few months after JonBenet was murdered. He waited for the family to come home and then when everyone was sleeping, he started to attack the girl while her mother was sleeping nearby. He fled out a window after her mother heard a noise and went to investigate. I will also provide another link, in case anyone is interested in reading about the intruder evidence.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14395331/site/newsweek/

But now I will kindly bow out, because I fear this thread has strayed from the original topic. DNA excluded two people from being who they claimed to be, and I think that is important for people to remember. It shows the power of DNA.

[helenazar]

I think there may still be some who are misunderstanding as to what I meant by "parallels" between the two cases. Of course I don't profess that Anderson and Karr as individuals are similar - they are not (other than the fact that both had false claims and both were mentally unstable). The similarities I am referring to have to do with the empirical aspects of the two cases. You have two mentally unstable individuals who for their own reasons claim to be someone they are not. There are similarities in the way these two individuals seemed to seek notoriety by becoming someone else. There are similarities in the various reasons they were taken seriously and how they became notorious. There are similarities in the ways they were proven to be fakes.

One of my main points is that had it not been for DNA, Karr may have gone for a long time as the "Ramsey killer", even though he wasn't all that convincing to begin with. To me Schankowska/AA was never very convincing either, but she was embraced by many people as the real Anastasia, even to this day, despite the DNA evidence. So Karr could have done it too, after all, he convinced the DA to take him seriously, and had it not been for the prompt DNA results, this would have dragged on for a long long time. Just as AA pulled off her own scam for many years because no DNA testing was available at the time. But because DNA testing was available for Karr, he was immediately ruled out. Even though he supposedly had some details of the murder that no one else knew. Even though the handwriting experts said that the ransom note was written by him. Etc., etc., etc.