Kaiser Wilhelm II

[bluetoria]

  That's very reassuring! How sad it was the Europe should have ever felt the need to go to war at all.

[rvinson]

I think Prussian culture was such that WWI would have occurred with or without Wilhelm as Kaiser. I also think it would have happened, even if Vicky and Fritz had lasted many years as Kaiser and Kaiserine. Prussian culture was so obsessed with nationalism and militarism, it was practically unavoidable. The power of Royalty was declining in Prussia, as it had already declined in England. Wilhelm, in fact, did not want war in the end, but accepted it after he could do nothing to stop it. His power was therefore not completely absolute. His authority was at times superseded by his Generals during the war. There was a duality to his person. He was brash, wanting conquests, but not the necessary conflicts to acheive them. I think Churchill said something to that effect about him. That "softer" side of him, I'm sure, was Vicky, by nature or nurture. Can you believe he used this as an office chair? Never would have occurred to me to make a chair like that!

[grandduchessella]

I think Vicky's feelings went back and forth regarding Wilhelm's arm. In many letters she is so sympathetic to him and very defensive about any criticism towards him; other times she could be very harsh about it. I think it was a combination of the pressures for a 'perfect' heir put on her (a teenager, remember) by both sides of the family. Plus she was virtually friendless in the Berlin Court, Fritz was often gone, she was homesick and now the ONE thing that was expected of her had gone wrong and she was basically given the blame.

About the chair in Wilhelm's home in Doorn, I had posted a picture similar in some long-forgotten thread. If I can remember correctly, he had it specially made either for his balance due to his arm or because it reminded him of horseback--a task which he was justifiably proud of mastering.

Here is a photo of Wilhelm and his mother from the set of Vicky and all her children. It shows a more relaxed side than is often seen:

[otmafan]

Ella, great picture. One of the only times the adult Willy seems slightly happy with his mother.  

[bluetoria]

That IS a lovely picture - it makes you wonder what their relationship might have been, had he not been the Kaiser, or she not been English!
Contemplating the previous postings, it dawned on me again that Vicky's relationship with her younger children (in fact, starting with Sigismund, who was the first one she breast fed) was so markedly different than that with her elder three. It seems by then she had learned to stand up for herself in her role as mother, and perhaps being a little older was able to take proper charge of them - hence the closer relationship. Again this is mirrored in Marie of Roumania, whose relationship with Carol is very like that of Vicky & Willy; and her inabilty to get on with her daughter, Elisabetha is almost the same as Vicky & Charlotte. Her younger children she almost smothered with love...and by the time they were born she had stood up to the court & insisted on appointing her own governesses etc.
Perhaps both of them (Vicky & Marie) were just too young & inexperienced but learned as time went on.  

[grandduchessella]

I completely agree. I had made a point of her age before but never made the connection with Missy. Both were so young, with so much pressure on them, in courts that were, if not always hostile, not very understanding. Both basically had their older children taken away for all intents and purposes (emotionally if not physically) and control put under the sovereign and/or ministers. I can never get over the fact, reading some of Vicky's letters, that she was so young when she had so much thrust upon her.

[VMC]

I think that the outcome of their relationship is readily apparent because of the dynamics of the love/hate relationship that existed between the two of them....it's not any different than today except in their case, it was played out on a global stage.....children crave their parents understanding and unconditional love.....the only problem is that along w/abuse, the cycle usually goes on.....the parents cannot relate to their children because they themselves did not receive it from their parents....so you do other things to show that you love one another.....you buy them expensive presents or in Wilhelm's case, your mother requests that QV has a state banquet for her son.....you'll never get the two people involved to let their guard down sufficiently for them to form a close and loving relationship....the best you can do is take the crumbs that are thrown out....as a side note, not all mothers are made up of motherly material....to raise emotionally healthy children, you yourself have to be emotionally healthy.....

[Robert_Hall]

By odd coincidence, today [27th Jan. 1859] marks the anniversary of Kaiser Wilhem's birth as well as the liberation of Auschwitz [1945].
Some might say the failure of the former led to the sad success of the later. [and I am NOT justifying  it, just noting the coincidence]

[bluetoria]

.....the parents cannot relate to their children because they themselves did not receive it from their parents....so you do other things to show that you love one another.....you buy them expensive presents or in Wilhelm's case, your mother requests that QV has a state banquet for her son.....you'll never get the two people involved to let their guard down sufficiently for them to form a close and loving relationship..emotionally healthy.....

This seems, IMO, a little harsh on Vicky She had a very loving relationship with her father & seemed to be trying constantly to 'do the right thing' for Willie. Her requests about the state banquet etc. seem a very natural request to make for your son, almost in spite of her own difficulties with him. I mean, I don't think she just 'fobbed him off' with material things, did she?

[HerrKaiser]

Thanks for the date coincidence. Surely had Wilhelm not lost the war and/or had Germany not been so devasted post war, the Nazi nightmare may not have occurred. Wilhelm was surely the most integrating of Jews compared his own peers and other European nations. He actually stimulated their success with his own goals of grandeur. Witness Albert Ballin for one. When Wilhelm realized Hitler's anti Jewish actions, he expressed great shame and disgust publicly.

[Alicky1872]

I know this is a bit off subject, but I was looking at the picture of Vicky and Willy that Grandduchessella posted, and it really struck me how short Vicky was! Willy looks average height, so just how tall was Vicky? I remember Queen Victoria writing that she was even SHORTER than Vicky! Wow!

[bluetoria]

"One thing I can't understand, [Alexandrine of Meck-Schwerin] says, 'She is very small' which considering that you are a good deal taller than me, and I am not a dwarf, is rather hard." (QV 19 Feb. 1858)


(I think on the pictures of Vicky & Fritz, when they were first married, Vicky looks like his little daughter rather than his wife because she seems so tiny next to him!)

[VMC]

This is in response to bluetoria.....first off, how do you capture a previous message and insert into your response....
No, I don't think she fobbed Wilhelm off....I really think that the two of them did care for each other but could not show it in a direct manner....the only way to show your affection towards the other person is in an indirect way not one on one....it's very difficult for two people who are emotionally distant from one another to form a give and take relationship....in that kind of relationship both sides scrutinise each others actions and words more intently than normal and tend to focus more on the negative aspects which in the end builds resentment because you feel that you can never satisfy the other person....Wilhelm ultimately could never have been the son that Vicky wanted nor could Vicky be the mother that Wilhelm needed....that being said, it's very conceivable that Vicky did have a close and loving relationship w/her father and Wilhelm certainly adored his wife; however, that ability to bond does not extend to each and every person in ones life so no, I don't think that I'm being unduly harsh to Vicky....just realistic....

[bluetoria]

This is in response to bluetoria.....first off, how do you capture a previous message and insert into your response....
No, I don't think she fobbed Wilhelm off....I really think that the two of them did care for each other but could not show it in a direct manner....Wilhelm ultimately could never have been the son that Vicky wanted nor could Vicky be the mother that Wilhelm needed....quote]

You just click on quote at the top of the message you wish to quote & delete the bits you don't want - someone just showed me! I don't know how you break it up into separate bits though! (HA HA HA now I've done it wrong - silly me!)

Do you mean Wilhelm could never be the son Vicky wanted because of his own character, or because NO ONE could live up to her ideal?
It seems when they were together at the Borsntedt (not sure how to spell it!) they were very close. I think much of it has to do with the influences of the Court & his (paternal) grandparents pulling him one way, & his very English mother pulling him another.
Of her other sons, her relationship with Sigismund & Waldemar seems much more affectionate - either because she was older & had escaped the 'Prussian influence' or because there was not the same pressure on her by then to produce the perfect heir.
Her accounts of the trauma SHE went through during the treatments on Willie's arm are very moving & show her deep concern & love for him, but then she was probably being 'cruel to be kind' (even though it didn't really work) & perhaps Willie only saw it as cruel.  

[Robert_Hall]

After years of reading a rather one-sided view of the old guy, I think it refreshing to find more objective works about him. Our perception of him was so distorted from the real man it seems almost funny in retrospect. Well, actually he was made a cartoon was he not, it propaganda ? And his political and military roles were nothing like what he was labled, far from an autocrat & warmonger. but not quite a constitutional monarch either.
He may not have been a real charm to know, but I think he would have been more interesting than we tend to think.