Author Topic: Olga And Rus  (Read 7912 times)

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Halinka

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Olga And Rus
« on: September 16, 2008, 11:01:47 AM »
Oh lord, I want to apolgoize first for this post, I rectently bought a new book "The fate of the romanovs" and they mention somthing in there I just want to confirm or if anyone knows any more informachine on this subject. Because I cannot seem to find it anywhere. I want to apolgozie if my facts or dates or anything is miscorrect.


In the book when the royal family was held captive, Pierre Gilliard mention in his memoirs or to his son that he herd screams from olga on the Rus? Does anyone know any mroe about this subject?

tom_romanov

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Re: Olga And Rus
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2008, 11:33:15 AM »
hi Halinka

i too have read FOTR many times and the story about the Rus goes -

baroness Buxhoevden? and possibly more servants told the guards about jewles hidden in OTMA's clothes e.g as buttons, inside the lining of hats and clothing e.t.c. so theguards locked all the men aboard the ship in their rooms and told the GD's that they couldn't. then OTMA remained fully clothed that night.during the night the guards ccame into their rooms and seared for jewels and llike you said Gilliard said he would be haunted for ever ' by their (otma) terrified screams. probably because the guards we harassing them.

hope this helps

tom


this photo was taken the next day- "http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f295/tom_romanov/img153.jpg" - it's the last photo of Olga and Alexi and you can see form Olga's sad expression that the way her clothes are buttoned up to theneck that something bad must've happened.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2008, 11:39:37 AM by tom_romanov »

Offline Ally Kumari

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Re: Olga And Rus
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2008, 11:42:19 AM »
It is true that Rodionov locked Alxei and Nagorny, but forbid the Grand Duchesses to lock in their own cabin.
According to one of Radzinki´s witnesses there was a man, who died in 1962. His name was euther Churyvin or Churyvev. He used to say he accompanied the Imperial children on their way from Tobolsk. One night on the ship the guards decided to join the girls in their cabin. He said they didn´t abuse the girls physically, but he always changed the reason why - either somebody stopped them or they were too drunk or both....

Offline Ally Kumari

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Re: Olga And Rus
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2008, 11:51:51 AM »
Yes. Maria was spared this, but her journey to Ekaterinburg had also its disadvantages...

Offline Sarushka

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Re: Olga And Rus
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2008, 02:12:20 PM »
There has been a storm of controversy surrounding the idea that the grand duchesses might have been treated badly aboard the Rus since the book was published 5 years ago. If you do a search on "Fate of the Romanovs" (or "FOTR" as it's commonly abbreviated) "Rus" or "Volkov" you'll find a LOT more information. Most of the relevant threads are in the Books section or The Final Chapter area.

A few corrections:
  • Gibbes's adopted son George appears to be the main source for this incident. Gibbes himself spoke to no one else about it, and apparently made no written record. He also made no mention of any mistreatment aboard the Rus to the White investigators following the murders.
  • Gilliard mentions Nagorny & Aleksei being locked in their cabin, but says nothing - neither positive or negative - about the grand duchesses' treatment.
  • Although a misplaced footnote in FOTR makes it appear otherwise, Volkov's memoirs state that despite the fact that the grand duchesses were forbidden to lock their doors, they were "left in peace." He does not write about the soldiers leering or harassing the girls in any other way. You can read the full text of Volkov's memoirs here.
  • If anything unsavory happened aboard the Rus, there's no evidence to suggest that Olga in particular was singled out for any mistreatment.

Personally, I don't think the last photo of Olga and Aleksei proves anything with regard to this alleged incident. The girls routinely wore high-necked dresses even at the height of summer, and no matter how they were treated, all of them had reason to be anxious and worried after being separated from their parents for weeks. A similar photo of Anastasia and Tatiana aboard the Rus (presumably taken the same day) clearly shows them as well as a number of other women also wearing hats and coats buttoned to the neck:




If you read the passage in FOTR carefully, you'll see that King & Wilson are careful to assert that they don't know for sure whether anything unpleasant happened to Olga, Tatiana, and Anastasia aboard the Rus that night. The fragments of evidence they present suggest many possibilities, but King & Wilson have been clear on this forum and others that they do NOT believe the grand duchesses were abused sexually.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2008, 02:14:02 PM by Sarushka »

Offline nena

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Re: Olga And Rus
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2008, 02:30:28 PM »
I found this thread very interesting. Well, do we know who were with Grand Duchesses on Rus in cabine? (I saw list of persons which left Tobolsk along with the IF). If Aleksei and Nagorny were locked in cabine, how it is possible Sydney Gibbes toke their photos? Only if trip was long, I mean,several days.So, on WHICH day these photos were taken?

And, I highly doubt GDs were treated poorly at Rus. Many people there who were with them, would protected GDs. Correct? And, maybe Olga though about something,or eventually saw something -- then she screamed, quite posible? And you have to admit, there is something wierd in Olga and Aleksei's look at their picture. For Aleksei I understand, he was ill, but Olga....?
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Offline Michael HR

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Re: Olga And Rus
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2008, 03:20:08 PM »
I simply do not accept that anything happened to the daughters on the Russ. If it had we would have known this for many years but it is speculative at best. Olga seems to have withdrawn but that may have more to do with the fact that she  perhaps understood the danger that her family were in at the time and the other daughters did not understand the extent of their danger and what might happen to them. She was the one most like her Mother and it may be that she had great difficult in coming to terms with being held captive with the constant fear of being separated, tried or murdered. I think Olga knew that they may not come out of what was happening alive and even if they did Alexis might not due to his illness at that time.

Olga was a serious lady with an imperial bearing like the Empress and captivity must have been very hard for her indeed. When you read Helen's book about the last 14 days at Yekaterinburg, if you have not read this you should get it, it mentions the daughters just before their death helping with the cleaning and seemed cheerful whereas most people who have been abused or worse would be withdrawn as would those around them. 

Olga had lost her position, her home, friends etc and faced the daily danger of being separated form her family and retainers and possible execution and if that was me I would be very withdrawn and would not cope or be able to have any working relationship with the guards. I think this explains Olga who was just more serious than the others in her out look form what I have learnt here on the forum.

The whole Russ thing is a pity as it can divert one form what was actually happening at the time which is more interesting from an historical point of view.

Those who had survived would all have said this to the Whites when spoken to and this does not seem to be the case.

Michael HR




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Offline Sarushka

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Re: Olga And Rus
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2008, 03:34:33 PM »
I found this thread very interesting. Well, do we know who were with Grand Duchesses on Rus in cabine? (I saw list of persons which left Tobolsk along with the IF). If Aleksei and Nagorny were locked in cabine, how it is possible Sydney Gibbes toke their photos? Only if trip was long, I mean,several days.So, on WHICH day these photos were taken?

I don't know who took the photos, nor which day they were taken. That is an excellent point. I do know this isn't the grand duchesses' cabin -- it's a dining salon, which is why Aleksei is also present.


Olga's expression in her final photo doesn't strike me as odd in the least. The children had been separated from their parents since April -- to my knowledge the family's only significant separation in their lifetime -- and the news from Ekaterinburg had been disconcerting at best. It was clear from NAM's letters that conditions in Ekaterinburg were going to be harsher than they had been in Tobolsk. Essentially, the girls were also smuggling roughly 18 pounds of diamonds in their clothing right under the noses of the soldiers. Is it any wonder they were nervous?

Also consider that these girls were relatively sheltered. We have reliable evidence to prove that the guards up on deck were rowdy that night -- drinking, singing, tossing grenades into the water, and shooting seagulls according to Volkov, and that the men of the imperial suite were locked in their cabins. IMO that alone could have been disturbing enough to upset a group of young women who were brought up to expect a high level of decorum and military discipline. Even if nothing inappropriate happened to the grand duchesses, Gibbes, locked away in his own cabin, could only imagine what was happening to the girls if he heard them scream. Of course that would have been horrifying for him. Given Gibbes' introverted personality and the morals of the time, it's virtually impossible to conceive that he would have asked the girls if they had been abused or even approached sexually. King and Wilson point out that Buxhoeveden's statement that none of the women undressed suggests the attention of the guards was sexual in nature. That's a reasonable assumption, but I'll tell you right now if I were traveling on a boat full of soldiers and I was forbidden to close/lock my door, I don't think I'd put on my nightgown either, no matter how well behaved those soldiers were.

As I see it, this is all a matter of perspective and relativity, which is extremely difficult to pin down without solid evidence, 90 years after the fact. IMO, it's certainly possible that the grand duchesses were somehow disturbed by the guards' conduct during their trip on the Rus, but with the evidence we have to work with it's impossible to determine the precise nature of that conduct. Many readers of FOTR come to the conclusion that there was some kind of sexual assault, though King & Wilson have made it clear they believe the guards' behavior did not progress beyond verbal taunts or lewd advances. While I have issues with FOTR's portrayal of the events of that trip, in the end I do agree with King & Wilson's final assessment: the grand duchesses were not assaulted physically or sexually on board the Rus.

At any rate, this has been discussed over and over again. Please read through the previous threads (some of which have been locked) for more information. A search on "rape" will certainly bring up this incident on the Rus in other discussions.

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Re: Olga And Rus
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2008, 03:38:13 PM »
From one of the many other threads on this subject which I wrote way back when:

An analysis of the text of FOTR pg140-141 using the known evidence. (my additions in bold)
"'The women, as Buxhoeveden recalled, had been ordered "to leave our cabin doors open all night. No one undressed." [Through the open doors, the soldiers leered at the grand duchesses]this phrase added by the authors, there is NO factual evidence to support the statement, and it is asserted as FACT and not identified as speculation [refusing, as Volkov later learned, to "leave them in peace"]Completely false. Volkov stated the GDs WERE LEFT IN PEACE. The abuse reached a cresendo as the night wore on. exactly what abuse? again, abuse is stated as fact when there is no support in the evidence.   Gibbes, locked away in his cabin, listened helplessly, as he later told his son George, as the drunken guards harassesd the grand duchesses, "It was dreadful, what they did,"  the former tutor recalled.  The "terrifed screams" of the girls, Gibbes said, haunted him, "to the end of his life."When Gibbes was deposed by Sokolov within months of the event, HE SAID NOTHING about abuse or screams or anything else. This statement was made literally decades after the fact, and saliently in House of Special Purpose George Gibbes made NO MENTION of this event on the Rus. "Rodionov, who was in charge of the evil-looking detachment, insisted on padlocking Alexis and Nagorny into their cabin, even though it was made clear that the child might need a doctor. The girls, on the other hand, were forbidden to lock their cabin door." (HOSP, pp. 102-103) 
 
"Almost certainly, the Grand Duchesses were subjected to taunts, and perhaps lewd advances at the hands of the drunken Latvian guards, how this progressed as the evening wore on is impossible to determine." Saliently, there is no cited evidence to support this supposition at all, much less "almost certainly'. To the contrary, Buxhoeveden writes specifically that only the assigned guards came near them, the others stayed on their assigned part of the boat, see "Left Behind" - "The rest of the soldiers did not come near us and spent the day on their part of the deck, singing and playing the accordion.  Some had fine voices, and it carried us back to happier days,..."
 
"no matter what took place, it is difficult not to believe that the experience had a profound traumatic effect on the young women, particularily grand Duchess Olga. Once she arrived in Ekaterinburg, Olga was withdrawn, silent, and did not mix with her sisters, perhaps indicating that she suffered some significant trauma. "  Buxhoeveden says Olga N. was showing these syptoms in April, weeks BEFORE the voyage on the Rus: cf. Life & Tragedy..."Olga Nicholaevna was in a state of great anxiety. She longed to join her parents, for whose fate she trembled, and, on the other hand, she feared the move for her brother, both on account of his health and also for fear of what the move might lead to" at Ch. 31; or perhaps for myriad of other reasons including imprisonment itself under increasingly difficult circumstances. - cf: Gilliard Ch. 22 "The conditions of the imprisonment were much more severe than at Tobolsk. Avdiev was an inveterate drunkard, who gave rein to his coarse instincts, and, with the assistance of his subordinates, showed great ingenuity in daily inflicting fresh humiliations upon those in his charge. There was no alternative but to accept the privations, submit to the vexations, yield to the exactions and caprices of these low, vulgar scoundrels."
 
"The near veil of silence surrounding the events of that night, however, is not difficult to understand, given the exalted position of the Grand Duchesses; ... to present them as paragons of all moral virtue  or perhaps the "silence" is because NOTHING ACTUALLY HAPPENED so no one had anything to say. ie: the entire diary entry of Gilliard:
"Monday May 20th - At half-past eleven we left the house and went on board the Russ.  She is the boat which brought us with the Czar and Czarina eight months ago.  Baroness Buxhoeveden has been granted permission to rejoin us.  We left Tobolsk at five o'clock.  Commisar Rodionov has shut Alexei Nicholaievich in his cabin with Nagorny.  We protested: the child is ill and the doctor ought to have access to him at any time.
"Wednesday May 22nd - We reached Tiumen this morning."
or here is the ENTIRE discussion on the subject in the Sokolov investigation's report made AFTER interrogating all surviving passengers of the Rus(pg 146)
    "Here is how the journey of the imperial children went under the command of Rodionov:
     "From Gilliard's deposition: "Rodionov behaved very badly. He closed off from outside the cabin in which were found Alexei with Nagorny.  All of the other cabins, in particular those of the Grand Duchesses were not to be locked from inside, under his order."
     "The morning of May 22, the imperial children arrived in Tiumen."

 
"Those on board the ship were unable (being locked up) or unwilling (through fear of reprisal ...) again, suppostion without evidence, yet stated as fact...This may be the key to the events of that night: shame and humiliation at not being able to come to the defense of the helpless Grand Duchesses might well account for Gibbes' "worst memory.

Halinka

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Re: Olga And Rus
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2008, 06:19:34 PM »
I like to thank everyone here on this forum, for giving me all these facts and deatils about the event. Again, I'm sorry for asking that question I only knew alittle bits and piece's at the time. But again thank you guys so much for posting all this info here.

Offline Ally Kumari

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Re: Olga And Rus
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2008, 02:48:30 AM »
Don´t be sorry Halinka. That´s what forum is for. At least in my oppinion...

tom_romanov

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Re: Olga And Rus
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2008, 11:57:20 AM »
i am sorry too if i offended anyone with my earlier post.i recalled it form memory so knowing me i probably added bits and changed bits e.t.c

tom :)

Offline clockworkgirl21

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Re: Olga And Rus
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2008, 06:03:02 PM »
I didn't know there was no evidence the event happened at all, thank you FA. I always doubted Olga was abused sexually; I just thought she may have been taunted, and had sexual remarks made to her.

rosieposie

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Re: Olga And Rus
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2008, 10:10:24 AM »
I think there was some sexual harrasment to the grand duchesses.
After all most of these men were "vulgar" and came from the "real" world.  Those men would have found it an amusement to taunt OTA with sexual references, weither drawn or spoken.   After all OTA came from Royality and were "Sheltered" from anything sexual (as far as we know) they possibly had the "talk" when they got their periods but who knows.
OTA were used to men who were always polite and classy, even the Sailors on the Standart were never vulgar towards them or in there presence.

But I am sure they were not sexually interfered with.   As mentioned already some of the ladies and servants must have told the guards that OTA carried Jewels upon themselves.
So the guards were body searching them.
Although we don't know if this would of been true as it could of been fabricated.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2008, 10:12:01 AM by rosieposie »