Author Topic: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir  (Read 279126 times)

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Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
« Reply #285 on: March 11, 2009, 08:12:06 AM »
Alicky did not have a good relationshipship with Miechen at all. When the elder woman tried to guide the young empress, she was rebuffed. Miechen did hold this as a grude against Alicky (especially she did not like her English background). For Xenia, Alicky moved further away as she produced more sons, while she could only produced only daughters. Even Greek Minny felt Alicky was jealous when she talked with her husband of their happy days in Fredenborg. The Black pearls (Montenegran Princesses), their feud with Alicky due to Rasputin was too well known.

Isn't it extraordinary that in a family packed with such paragons of diplomacy, wisdom and even native intellect as Miechen, Maria Georgievna and Xenia Alexandra was even given the time of day?

Leaving aside the fact that the story about Miechen's gracious attempts to guide the young Empress (by encouraging her to slag off her mother-in-law, apparently) comes from Catherine Radziwill, a source you councilled others to avoid, the theatre incident during the mourning period for Alexander III hardly sets her up as a woman to be emulated by one seeking to understand the ways of the court, does it?

Maria Georgievna was not noted for her own sweet relationsip with the Romanovs or Russia, which she sought to be away from as much as she could. Given this, do you think that Alexandra knew her well? Are you aware that people who didn't know Nicholas also left accounts of reserved, "cold" or simply off-hand behaviour which stand in contrast to the adoring reminiscences of his female cousins? Sre you aware of the many aconts of Alexandra being gracious to freinds or strangers, and do you judge her by those too? - I wouldn't base my assessment of a person on either collection of short impressions or incidents, still less think still less think I could deduce their feelings or thoughts from them.

And since Alexandra certainly left no letters in which she said, "oh that bitch Xenia; I wish I could have some boys as well; I think I'll stop inviting her around here until she learns her place," the notion that Alexnadra felt "jealousy" for her sister-in-law's quiverful of sons is conjecture at best. there are plenty of other explanations for the apparent distancing between her and Xenia over the eyars (which by the wya is less apparanet in A's own letters than in Xenia's.) Perhaps Xenia's notion taht Alexandra's ailments were all in the mind - when A had herself noted a connection between her son's illness and her own health - may have played their role. Don't let's forget that in 1905 Xenia and Sandro considered running away.

The point of all this is to say: that the breakdown in Alexandra's relationship with some members of the family is something taht occurred over years and was a story with two sides - like most stories. It was not the in-born hatred of an unreasonable woman for her husband's warm and welcoming relatives who only wanted to be her friends. Back in the days when she and Melitsa were friends, remember, Alexandra was considered odd because the rest of the family looked down their noses at the Montenegrins.

I enjoy this sort of exchange hugely or I wouldn't keep coming back..... ;D :D
« Last Edit: March 11, 2009, 08:16:52 AM by Janet Ashton »
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Offline Teddy

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
« Reply #286 on: March 11, 2009, 08:42:51 AM »
Thank you Janet.

I think Eric you truly don't like the Empress Alexandra. Black mailing her. So as Janet says even the Grand Duchess Maria Georgievna tried to escape her husbands country. I think the Grand Duchess Maria Georgievna was maybe one of those who onderstood her cousins wife, how she feeled in the Romanov family. And I would be glad to quote from A Romanov Diary, (but then I need permission from at least Marlene, because of copyright).

The Grand Duchess was very positive about the Empress Alexandra, very honest. In her words: The Empress was not that bad at all, but you have to do your best to know her, and understand her thoughts.

Personal I can maybe feel what the Empress have feeled. People around me don't understand me in the beginning. But many people judge others because their first meeting with them, or because others tells stories about that person in negative way. The best to judge eachother is after a few meetings with a person and have your own confersation with them (without knowing other peoples thoughts).

And it is always easy to judge people behind their back and even more easier to judge about a person when they have died because they never can defend themselve anymore.

It would be very interesting to find the early diaries of the Empress Alexandra so we can maybe find information about her earlier thoughts of her marriage.

Offline Marlene

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
« Reply #287 on: March 11, 2009, 09:55:26 AM »
I can act on the copyright holders' .. you may quote wiithin the gudielines of fair use ... if you want to quote a few paragraphs in context with this discussion, you can do so

and for those who may not understand why ... I edited the manuscript  ... ...
Thank you Janet.

I think Eric you truly don't like the Empress Alexandra. Black mailing her. So as Janet says even the Grand Duchess Maria Georgievna tried to escape her husbands country. I think the Grand Duchess Maria Georgievna was maybe one of those who onderstood her cousins wife, how she feeled in the Romanov family. And I would be glad to quote from A Romanov Diary, (but then I need permission from at least Marlene, because of copyright).

The Grand Duchess was very positive about the Empress Alexandra, very honest. In her words: The Empress was not that bad at all, but you have to do your best to know her, and understand her thoughts.

Personal I can maybe feel what the Empress have feeled. People around me don't understand me in the beginning. But many people judge others because their first meeting with them, or because others tells stories about that person in negative way. The best to judge eachother is after a few meetings with a person and have your own confersation with them (without knowing other peoples thoughts).

And it is always easy to judge people behind their back and even more easier to judge about a person when they have died because they never can defend themselve anymore.

It would be very interesting to find the early diaries of the Empress Alexandra so we can maybe find information about her earlier thoughts of her marriage.

Author of Queen Victoria's Descendants,
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Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
« Reply #288 on: March 11, 2009, 11:53:52 AM »
You are right about me not liking the Empress. I loved her asI first read "Nicholas & Alexandra", but more and more I found out that Alicky has her good side, but also a very dark side. Pride was one of her many faults. She became Empress soon after her marriage, but instead of asking for her mother-in-law and others for help, she forged on ahead. A foreigner who distaste Russian ways (a fallacy of course, but she not helped by her own attitude and cold behavior). Vicky was the first to see the power hungray side of her Hessian niece and wrote to her daughter Sophie about it. The clashes with Minny, Miechen and later Ducky became unavoidable. That is not to say that Miechen was always right, as sometimes her actions bought Alicky and Minny in close agreement on how that branch was actually useful to the Russian Monarchy. Almost certainly the rejection of Boris as a suitor to Olga Nicholievna, eldest daughter of Nicholas II, brought about a break between Alicky and Miechen.

Offline Teddy

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
« Reply #289 on: March 11, 2009, 12:04:06 PM »
Thank you for your point of view Eric. Of course the Empress made mistakes. She is not holy for me. What we both can't denie: The Empress Alexandra is a very interesting subject. Some of us, love her, and some others don't. I hope that future books about the Empress will give us another insight. I respect your opinion, Eric.

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
« Reply #290 on: March 11, 2009, 12:08:58 PM »
Thanks Teddy for respecting my opinion. Actually we should respect everyone 's opinion, whether we argree with them or not. Sometimes these discussion have a tendency to turn personal. As for Miechen, she was a very interesting charecter too, the real "grande dame" of Russian society at the reign of Nicholas II. It was because of the Dowager Empress's travels and the reigning Empress's self induced retirement that created that vacoom for her.

Offline Teddy

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
« Reply #291 on: March 11, 2009, 12:21:01 PM »
Once again, the Empress Alexandra had her difficulties. But I really like her. I think some people better can "walk in someone elses footsteps" because they already had the same (or sort off) experience in their own lives as the Empress Alexandra. In my personal life, I also had/have to fight again and again mentally against outsiders, because they don't take the oppurtunity to give me (or others) a chance to explain what I (they) really mean.

But let we stop her to talk about the Empress Alexandra alone, this thread is about the Vladimirs'. :) Also a very interesting family.

Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
« Reply #292 on: March 11, 2009, 04:29:07 PM »
You are right about me not liking the Empress. I loved her asI first read "Nicholas & Alexandra", but more and more I found out that Alicky has her good side, but also a very dark side. Pride was one of her many faults. She became Empress soon after her marriage, but instead of asking for her mother-in-law and others for help, she forged on ahead. A foreigner who distaste Russian ways (a fallacy of course, but she not helped by her own attitude and cold behavior). Vicky was the first to see the power hungray side of her Hessian niece and wrote to her daughter Sophie about it.


Since I have a cold and can't really concentrate on anything except this board this evening, I am here again with another thought, which is probably OT to the thread, but not sure where else to put it:

In the early days of her marriage Alexandra actually accepted a great deal of help, not just from her mother-in-law (who was present at his first birth and offered other advice on child-bearing) but also from Ella, who was there to literally decorate her houses for her. It was not until Alexandra was nearly thirty that she and Nicholas began to react in secretive or defensive ways to Ella's questioning and lectures (for that's what they were), as far as I can see. I honestly wonder whether Maria feodorvna accepted much advice form HER mother-in-law? - Alexander III, though he was furious at his father's treatment of her, did not get on tha well with his mother either: he did not agree with her politics and he felt very much second best to his late brother. So he formed a "young court" seperate from that of the Tsar, and I have the impression that Maria F. - whose early married life was not easy at all - was left to find her own way or simply "forge ahead". But at least she had a mother to reprimand her now and again when she overstepped the mark.

As nothing more than an observation on Vicky: in Hannah Pakula's good bio of her (it is far superior to the one she did on Queen Marie) she observes, IIRC, "It is odd that Vicky, who recieved such a good education herself, educated her daughters only for marriage." I wouldn't suggest it might definitely be so, but it did cross my mind that her view could be seen in that light: in her niece Alix she was faced (as in the case of her own daughter Charlotte) with a young girl who had opinions of her own, and she judged accordingly. But her favourite hessian was the opinionated Victoria, so perhaps that is a little unfair. She differed from everone in thinking Victoria prettier than Ella and saying so when anyone raised the topic.  ;D
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you -
Ye are many; they are few.

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
« Reply #293 on: March 12, 2009, 12:16:02 PM »
I sincerely think that had Alicky conquered her shyness and illness and put her heart on the line, she would be far more popular in and out of the family. The observation of Andrei is valid as empress, she automatically thought that they should listen to her, but they do not. Emotionally, she was a fatallistic person (according to her cousin Princess Marie Louise), who saw life as a trial than a celebration. Miechen was lucky that she had a foray that Minny did not go into-society, a place that she could shine. As time builds up, her success in business and society gave her a status that she believed herself entitled to. As for Minny and her mother-in-law, according to her daughter Marie Coburg's letters, she was quite in awe of Empress Marie. After the older woman's death, Minny was surprised to discover that her mother-in-law actually quite approve of her. I think once again Minny's tact and acts of consideration paid dividends again--a gift that Alicky sadly lacked.

Aglaya

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
« Reply #294 on: April 05, 2009, 01:26:47 PM »
Miechen with her children:

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
« Reply #295 on: April 07, 2009, 01:39:59 PM »
Nice picture.

Alicky was one with strong opinions and less likely to tolerant opposition. Ella did try to help, but she soon went to live in Moscow. Anyway any tact, charm and goodwill Ella was able to generate for herself in the Russian court did not seem to rub off on her younger sister, who did have a most superior position. Dagmar did got along with Marie of Hesse, but did not know much from her. Only after her death when Marie Coburg read some of her mother'sletters to her did she realised how the elder woman esteemed her. It was this loyalty to Marie of Hesse that made the acceptance of Alexander II's morganetic wife so trying. She was ashamed of her father-in-law (if you nead "Once a grand duke" you will know how the family felt about that woman...compared to Dagmar, Olga Fedorovna (Cecilie of Baden) was down right rude !). Lets go back to Miechen.

Offline Ally Kumari

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
« Reply #296 on: May 17, 2009, 12:22:08 PM »
Miechen


Offline katmaxoz

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
« Reply #297 on: August 10, 2009, 05:26:25 AM »
Grand Duchess Maria and ladies in waiting at the winter palace ball 1903 - click on the link for the full size picture..


Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
« Reply #298 on: September 14, 2009, 10:32:52 PM »
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6823408.ece

Additional jewels belonging to Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna (the elder) have been found in Sweden's Foreign Ministry.

woodsman

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
« Reply #299 on: September 14, 2009, 10:48:59 PM »

any comments  concerning their sale?