Author Topic: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir  (Read 264556 times)

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Offline Marie Valerie

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
« Reply #480 on: July 23, 2012, 07:27:55 AM »


Marie Pawlowna painted by Gustav Richter

Offline Marie Valerie

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
« Reply #481 on: July 23, 2012, 07:30:30 AM »


Gustav Richter painted also this picture of Marie's sister-in-law Maria Alexandrowna

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
« Reply #482 on: July 24, 2012, 10:52:43 AM »
Swedish painter ? I wonder where Marie's painting is now ? Still in Russia or Mecklenburg ?

Russian Art Lover

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
« Reply #483 on: July 24, 2012, 05:12:20 PM »
I wish I could add to this interesting discussion, but all I can say about Maria Pavlovna is that she became close to Grand Duchess Maria Alexandrovna after the revolution, as both were more or less the sole survivors from the older generation.

I have to say that I am not drawn to Miechen at all. Give me Alix, Ella, Zinaida, Minny any day, with all their faults and flaws. At least that makes them seem more "human." In my book, being a superb hostess (when you have millions in the bank and an army of servants) or fleeing the revolution in style does not really endear me to her. I find Miechen cold, ambitious and somewhat one-dimensional. For most of her life, she was rather an ugly woman, and her spectacular jewels seem to somehow make her to me more ugly, strangely. For all her ambitions in Russia, I think her determination to cling to Lutheranism shows that she was more prepared to "take" from Russia, but not really give back anything in turn. Minny really was involved in countless acts of charity and introduced many small innovations from liberal Denmark. Ella and Alix threw themselves into the religion, went on pilgrimages, studied the history. But all Miechen seemed to do was host grand parties and take on similar public roles such as president of the Imperial Academy of Arts after her husband's death. Ella and Alix did less fashionable things, like open schools of traditional handicraft, that sort of thing. I just feel Miechen was insincere and her ambitions leave me cold.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 05:13:52 PM by Russian Art Lover »

Offline Marie Valerie

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
« Reply #484 on: July 25, 2012, 08:23:16 AM »
I think Dagmar did did more harm to Russia than Miechen.
Dagmar drove her husband away from Germany, a country that never had serious problems with Russia - just for her revenge for Denmark losing the Schleswig-Holstein war..
The turn to France was also a giant great mistake - look at 1914...
She sacrificed the dynasty, her remaining two sons, her daughter-in-law and her five Grandchildren for a war and victory over Germany..
Dagmar did all she could to have danish firms and buisnessess to work in Russia, all other empresses put Russia first - she did not.
She made that her son Nicky had no teacher long enough to built a relationship or influence him in a positive way - just because she wanted all control over him.

Miechen was not a symphatic person, but she was a strong woman and a notable host and did her best to entertain the russian upper-class.
Her sons were another topic..

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
« Reply #485 on: July 25, 2012, 10:44:29 AM »
I have to disagree. Dagmar did not drive Russia away from Germany. Willy did with his wild schemes. You have to remember Alexander III continue to work with Bismark and continued the "Three Emperor's League" with Germany & Austria. Miechen on the other hand was the tool of Bismark. Called by the Iron Chancellor as "the cleverest princess in Germany", Miechen was involved in intrigues that left Alexander III, reeling. In the Emperor's mind he was nothing more than a traitor to Russia and a spy for Germany.

Offline Marie Valerie

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
« Reply #486 on: July 25, 2012, 11:46:46 AM »
I am not a fan of Wilhelm II. or the Hohenzollern, but the Kaiser was only known for his provoking speeches and "Säbelrasseln" but in his rign there was from 1888-1914 not a single war.
In Germany there is a saying: Dogs who bark don't bite.

How can Miechen be a spy??? She had no access to state papers and was not consulted at decisions..
Bismarck also had much of correspondence with smart women, Katharina Orloff for example or Hildegard von Spitzemberg, so why shouldn't he just correspondence with Miechen?

Russian Art Lover

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
« Reply #487 on: July 25, 2012, 02:42:32 PM »
I believe Alexander III gave Miechen a good dressing-down when he heard she had been feeding information to Bismark, no?
She certainly had access to state secrets - she was sleeping with the man who was number two in the empire!
While Dagmar certainly did all she could for Danish firms and businesses in Russia, there is no denying that, I do not think that she was responsible for the move away from Germany. It was Alexander II alone who followed a pro-Prussian foreign policy (which brought Russia nothing, by the way!) - everyone else was against it, including the Empress (a Hessian princess) and the heir himself, the future Alexander III. During the Franco-Prussian War, everyone was aghast when Alexander II seemed so pleased at the Prussian victories. But the move away from Germany towards France was very much the fault of Prussia herself - and it was Alexander III who made all the decisions. Yes, Dagmar was incredibly anti-Prussian, but at that stage she did not dare to try and influence her husband. If Alexander III had been pro-German, she could certainly not have been able to make him change his mind! Alexander III was a very astute tsar - he took capital from everyone to build up Russian industry, and kept Russia out of wars. If anything, it was Kaiser Willie and all his games and intrigues that turned Alexander III (and Edward VII) against him, far more than any influence from their wives.
I do agree, of course, that Miechen was a strong woman and a notable host. It sometimes happens that the most unpleasant people make the best politicians and rulers!
I wonder what feelings Miechen secretly harboured about being empress herself? After Nixa died, Alexander only wanted to marry "Dusenka" Mescherskaya and had to be forced by his father to go to Copenhagen and propose to Dagmar. Ideally, he would have been allowed to make a morganatic marriage to Mescherskaya and the throne would have passed to Vladimir and Miechen..... Both would have loved that, I feel.... Funny how close they also came in the next generation, with Kirill and Ducky.... To be honest, I have never understand why Miechen kept her Lutheranism for so long. Was she so religious? All other German princesses dropped it like a hot cake, even Alix, if it meant marrying a tsar or a grand duke!

Offline Marie Valerie

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
« Reply #488 on: July 25, 2012, 03:01:32 PM »
Bismarck had spys everywhere (he was ambassador to Russia and had connections there) he didn't need Miechen for that...

Alexanders II. pro-Prussian foreign policy brought peace, or was there any war between Russia or any German State before 1914?

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
« Reply #489 on: July 26, 2012, 08:21:07 PM »
Yes. But Miechen was a willing student to Bismark. She also made a lot of money in trade too. Both she and her husband were one of the most wealthy of all the grand ducal couples in Russia.

I think Alexander III began to have doubts about Germany once Bismark was dropped by Willy, even though Dagmar hated that man, Alexander believe he was a guarantee of peace. 

Offline CountessKate

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
« Reply #490 on: July 27, 2012, 12:51:54 AM »
Quote
She also made a lot of money in trade too.

How did she make money in trade?

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
« Reply #491 on: July 27, 2012, 07:36:10 AM »
By make deals like railroads in Russia. As a senior grand ducal couple, Vladmir and Miechen had great power and influence at court.

Brassov

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
« Reply #492 on: September 06, 2012, 05:37:23 AM »
I have always liked her, perhaps because she was a colourful personality and she enjoyed being who she was. So a few people disliked her for various reasons, so what ? From all accounts she comes across as being a bit eccentric, very extravagant, but at the same time, very intelligent and brave.   

There is a post on Arturo Beeches website about the reunion of her heirs at Contrexeville. I never realised that she had a palace built in the town. Has the building been turned into an hotel ?
It would be interesting to see photos of the interior.  This appears to be a forgotten Romanov residence, as I cannot find very much about it.     

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
« Reply #493 on: September 06, 2012, 01:18:56 PM »
I think quite a few Romanovs had property overseas. Miechen is only one of them. Her son Cyril bought an apartment in Paris with money from his parents while he was in exile due to his marriage to Victoria Melita. Grand Duke Paul also bought a house in France while he and his wife Princess Paley was in exile and able to return and live after the revolution. I was quite surprised that Xenia & Sandro did not have a house in Paris or Felix Yusspov considering that they could easily afford it.

As for the likability of Miechen, she was too bossy for my taste. In fact, it was rumored that Prince Max of Baden broke his engagement to Ellen because he couldn't stand his future mother-in-law. Both Prince Nicholas of Greece and Princess Victoria Melita of Coburg had trying times with her. It may be easy to admire her from afar, but it might not be the same to have a relationship or friendship with her. She even was able to pick a fight with Ella, one of the most beloved of grand duchesses.

Offline edubs31

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Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
« Reply #494 on: September 06, 2012, 03:18:47 PM »
I don't like her much at all. I find her interesting certainly and I do realize that she played a necessary role in her entertaining of the court and high Russian society...but there is no doubt she was a woman with an agenda and two faced at that.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right...