Author Topic: DNA from the Tsar's scarf  (Read 12816 times)

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Offline RichC

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DNA from the Tsar's scarf
« on: December 12, 2004, 02:50:41 AM »
FYI

Posted on AFP Worldwide News Service:


MOSCOW (AFP) - The Romanov family dismissed a Japanese scientist's claim that remains found in a grave in the central city of Yekaterinburg and later enterred in Saint Petersburg were as claimed those of Russia's last tsar, Nicholas II, and his family.


AFP/File Photo

     

"The family itself is not bothered by the opinions of Japanese researchers," Ivan Artsishevsky, a spokesman for the Association of Romanov Family Members in Russia, said on Russia's Echo Moskvi radio station.

"We feel that scientific disputes should be worked out in the scientific arena," he said.

Many questions surrounding identification of the remains were studied in depth by experts on a special state committee before Russia officially accepted the conclusion that they were the remains of Nicholas II and his family while "here we have one researcher saying that he has his own results."

"The family doesn't agree with this," Artsishevsky told the radio station.

His comments came after the Russian Orthodox Church reported Thursday the conclusions of the Japanese research team led by Tatsuo Nagai, the director of the Institute of Forensic Medicine at the University of Kitodzato in Japan.

Nagai's research was based on an analysis of DNA contained in blood and sweat stains on a scarf that the young Tsar Nicholas II was wearing when he was attacked while travelling in Japan around the turn of the last century and preserved in Japan ever since.

Comparison of that DNA with the DNA in the remains showed that they were not those of the late tsar, his wife, and three of the couple's four daughters, all of whom were executed by the Bolsheviks in 1918 a year after their revolution.

After extensive analysis conducted in Russia and abroad, notably in Britain, the remains were officially accepted as authentic by the Russian government in 1998 and were enterred in a ceremony in Saint Petersburg alongside those of other members of the once-ruling Romanov family.

Forensic experts in Britain asserted at the time that the probability that the remains were indeed those of the tsar and his family stood at 99 percent.

The Russian Orthodox Church however has skirted the issue and the head of the church, Patriarch Alexei II, declined to attend the Saint Petersburg ceremony.

Annie

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Re: DNA from the Tsar's scarf
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2004, 08:13:50 AM »
I think it's entirely possible that the scarf was contaminated over the 113 years since, or that it may not be authentic at all.

Offline RichC

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Re: DNA from the Tsar's scarf
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2004, 12:07:58 PM »
Well, I was wondering if I could get some commentary, since I confess I'm not entirely sure what the article is actually saying.  Maybe it's just poorly written??

First it appears that the scientist says the dna matches, then it says there is no match???

Offline Belochka

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Re: DNA from the Tsar's scarf
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2004, 05:12:03 PM »
Hi RichC,

Could you please provide the exact link to the article you introduced please?

Thanks,

Belochka


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Offline RichC

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Re: DNA from the Tsar's scarf
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2004, 01:22:41 AM »
Hello Belochka,

Here's the link:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20041211/sc_afp/russiajapanscience_041211203447

If it doesn't work, I got it from the Yahoo.com website.  I went to Yahoo News and searched "All News" for "Romanov".

Rich


helenazar

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Re: DNA from the Tsar's scarf
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2004, 02:32:52 PM »
Quote
Well, I was wondering if I could get some commentary, since I confess I'm not entirely sure what the article is actually saying.  Maybe it's just poorly written??

First it appears that the scientist says the dna matches, then it says there is no match???


RichC,  the article does seem to be very poorly written.
What it is basically saying is this: Nagai claims that the sequences he extracted from the blood and sweat on  the scarf do not match the sequence from the remains believed to be N II's. Nagai did not provide any details as to what way the sequence mismatched, he just said it did. Neither does Nagai mention what he used as his control - in order to exclude the possibility of contamination - this could be someone else's sequence he is looking at. He never published any of his data, so we have no way of knowing what he is talking about. Basically he just made this statement to the press and wants everyone to just accept it without any scrutiny of his data.
Another thing that sounds kind of weird is that the author of this article throws in the rest of the family into the mix, whereas the only DNA that Nagai tried to "confirm" was Nicholas's and not any of the others. This shows that the author either does not understand any of this or is just aiming for sensationalism. Not to mention the misspellings...
Generally speaking, all this sounds very ambiguous and  kind of meaningless, to be perfactly honest.

Helen
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by helenazar »

Offline Belochka

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Re: DNA from the Tsar's scarf
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2004, 10:46:42 PM »
Thanks RichC  :D

The most important statement made in this article is that the Romanov family dismiss Nagai's recent public claim. ;)


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Offline RichC

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Re: DNA from the Tsar's scarf
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2004, 03:23:12 PM »
Quote

Generally speaking, all this sounds very ambiguous and  kind of meaningless, to be perfactly honest.

Helen



Yeah, I agree.  Thanks for the confirmation.  One doesn't often come across articles about the Romanov's on Yahoo's homepage.  It's too bad that when one does appear, it's meaningless.  Millions of people get their news from Yahoo...

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: DNA from the Tsar's scarf
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2004, 11:23:54 AM »
And yet news, even when from Yahoo, needs to be evaluated. It's great that we have a place where we can evaluate what's being put out there in the media.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: DNA from the Tsar's scarf
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2005, 02:20:46 PM »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Belochka

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Re: DNA from the Tsar's scarf
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2005, 10:46:58 PM »
So long as bad sciencific inquiry will be believed by a few, those sceptics, will continually fail to understand  how flawed Nagai's scientific inquiry really is.

They shall remain unconvinced about the veracity of the I.F. skeletons, for they have their own agenda to tell.


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lexi4

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Re: DNA from the Tsar's scarf
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2005, 11:18:38 PM »
Does anyone know why Nagai did the tests in the first place? I know very little about him.

Offline Belochka

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Re: DNA from the Tsar's scarf
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2005, 12:19:00 AM »
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Does anyone know why Nagai did the tests in the first place?

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calebGmoney

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Re: DNA from the Tsar's scarf
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2005, 07:43:08 PM »
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I think it's entirely possible that the scarf was contaminated over the 113 years since, or that it may not be authentic at all.

If it were kept in good care over these years, why would the scrarf be contaminated?

Offline Grace

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Re: DNA from the Tsar's scarf
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2005, 07:58:03 PM »
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If it were kept in good care over these years, why would the scrarf be contaminated?


It's very unlikely that no human hand other than that of Nicholas has touched this scarf in 113 years and even a slight touch with an ungloved hand could be enough to transfer unrelated DNA onto the scarf.