Queen Mary- part 4

[Carolath Habsburg]

Queen Mary & King George

[LadyCathy]

Queen Mary had a very complex personality.  It is interesting that Queen Victoria's daughter said that she was "unnatural" as a mother.  I believe she was.  There was something lacking in her when it came to her children.  She behaved with them more like a strict nursery school teacher than a mother, but natural biology did play into it and she tried instinctually to do her best.  Her husband was completely impossible when it came to the children, but Queen Mary saw to it that they did go to parties and mixed with other children.  I personally believe that she was so terrified of doing the wrong thing where they were concerned that she did very little, not because she did not love them but because she feared making a mistake.  This is interesting because she was very much a mother figure to her own brothers.  I have tried very hard to understand her over the years but she is a puzzlement to me.  If I ever got the opportunity to meet with Her Majesty, I would ask her just one question which is whether or not her grandmother was ever "fun" to be with?  I have a feeling I already know the answer but perhaps I am wrong.

[mcdnab]

I think it was Queen Mary's friend Lady Airlie who said that both the King and Queen deeply cared for their children but just had no understanding of a child's mind. On the unnatural mother bit from Empress Frederick - unlike Queen Victoria and her eldest daughter it seems Mary found the whole business of pregnancy embarrassing and didn't wallow in it or appear to enjoy it quite as much as  as some other members of the family I don't thiink it necessarily impacted on her affection for her children though.
Interestingly both her and George V doted on their grandchildren and begged to have them with them more often (particularly the York's daughters Elizabeth and Margaret) in part I suspect that George V found girls easier to deal with. There is a note in her diary and a photo i think of Queen Mary building sandcastles with the young Princess Elizabeth. The present Queen seems to have been exceptionally fond of both her grandparents although her cousin Lord Lascelles I think is on record as saying he was rather in awe of his grandfather the King (but unlike the York children who were often with the King and the Queen the Lascelles boys spent less time with them)

[CountessKate]

I also think Queen Mary was like Queen Victoria in that she had no particular interest in babies per se - unlike the Empress Frederick.  Indeed, Queen Victoria frequently teased her daughter about her love of babies and wrote, in 1880 "As regards the baby [whose is not absolutely clear from the text, but probably the Princess Charlotte's baby Feodora, born in 1879] I think you are hardly a fair judge.  Hardly anyone I know has such a culte for little babies as you have, and young people are generally not so much wrapped up in them.  I know dear Grandmama went into such extasies over them, so that I felt the reverse".  While Queen Victoria in her turn was sometimes inclined to overstate the case, there wasn't any modern expectation of involvement in babies and children for women of Queen Mary's generation and social status.  If she wasn't particularly interested in babies, and had no special feeling for children, she would take a conventional approach which was firmly disciplinary and fairly remote - but not in any way different from that of other mothers of her time and class.  But her genuine distress over the premature death of her son Prince John, must surely absolve her from the charges of a lack of affection for her children generally.  As they grew older they became more companions to their parents and I believe she and George V were very much bereft when Princess Mary married.  Princess Elizabeth was their favorite grandchild - the others really didn't come close - but as mcdnab says, they were much more relaxed with her at least and the quote he mentions from Queen Mary's diary refers to the visit of the three-year old Princess Elizabeth to her grandparents in Bognor, where George V was recovering from a severe illness, where she recorded "G. delighted to see her", and the next day "I played with Lilibet in the garden making sand pies!"  It's not uncommon for grandparents to relax and be more natural with their grandchildren - after all, they don't have the primary responsibility and can do a bit of spoiling.

[Kalafrana]

According to Philip Ziegler in King Edward VIII, George V was a doting parent when his children were small, but much stricter with them from when they were 5 or 6.

I think we have to remember that we are talking of a period when discipline was treated as a priority and spoiling the great terror. We also have to remember that nowadays a woman who was not all that keen on babies would not have six children (Queen Mary) or nine children (Queen Victoria).

From what my mother told me, her mother was fairly strict with her and had high expectations of her, whereas she was not at all like that with me, though she did not beat about the bush when she decided that I had no ear for music (my grandmother had been a music teacher).

Ann

[CountessKate]

According to Philip Ziegler in King Edward VIII, George V was a doting parent when his children were small, but much stricter with them from when they were 5 or 6.

I think we have to remember that we are talking of a period when discipline was treated as a priority and spoiling the great terror. We also have to remember that nowadays a woman who was not all that keen on babies would not have six children (Queen Mary) or nine children (Queen Victoria).

From what my mother told me, her mother was fairly strict with her and had high expectations of her, whereas she was not at all like that with me, though she did not beat about the bush when she decided that I had no ear for music (my grandmother had been a music teacher).

Ann

I think that's absolutely right - effectively, having children was Queen Mary's job, part of her genuine vocation which was being a successful consort to the future sovereign.  And she did this part of it thoroughly and conscientiously, but not with special flair or imagination. 

This is interesting because she was very much a mother figure to her own brothers. 

There were certain maternal qualities in her relationships with her brothers, but to my mind these are commensurate with her position of the oldest child and only daughter, rather than as a sort of surrogate for her own mother, who, with all her faults, was in certain ways a more ‘maternal’ figure to her children than Mary was to hers.  Mary’s situation in the family developed into her being the sensible one, who as she got older put a brake (or attempted to) on the excesses of her parents, particularly in financial matters, and in directing and helping her younger brothers’ careers – and it’s very true that she was deeply fond of them.  In this way she assumed a quasi-maternal role to her entire family, parents included; but it had little to do with the more sentimental qualities of love of babies or small children which I think we all agree was not her forte.

[Kalafrana]

CountessKate

I agree entirely on your analysis of Queen Mary's relationship with her parents and brothers. The brothers were, of course, teenagers if not young men by the time she assumed a role of responsibility towards them - very different from babies.

I find it quite interesting that three of the four Teck children turned out to be admirably sensible and dutiful, in contrast to their charming but spendthrift parents.

Ann

[CountessKate]

I find it quite interesting that three of the four Teck children turned out to be admirably sensible and dutiful, in contrast to their charming but spendthrift parents.

A different way of rebelling against parental values, perhaps! 

[Kalafrana]

Quite possibly. The classic example is one of the sons of Augustus John, who after a childhood spent wandering about in a gipsy caravan, insisted on joining the Navy and rose to become First Sea Lord as Admiral of the Fleet Sir Caspar John.

Ann

[Lindelle]

In the Queen Mother's Biography, it was noted how much joy baby Elizabeth gave her grandparents when her parents were away.

[royal_netherlands]

And that joy can be seen in the above picture.

[RoyalWatcher]

Precious, absolutely precious. Thank you, royal_netherlands. =  )

For me, I think that Queen Mary and HM The Queen were/are kindred spirits. Look at Queen Mary's expression...a loving grandmother holding the hand of her mini-me! She would be so proud of her Lilibet...in every-single-way.

[katmaxoz]

I watched this DVD "Elizabeth: from Princess to Queen" on the weekend

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Young-Elizabeth-Princess-Queen-NEW-DVD-/190412744615

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Queen-Elizabeth-Special-Double-Box/dp/B000VI86TI

It contained a lot of archival footage of Queen Mary and the young Queen Elizabeth. There is an obvious fondness between both women.  The documentry made a point that from Queen Mary, Elizabeth learnt that she should not show emotion in public, that duty comes first and her parents reinforced that after the abdication when her father became King and did everything he could for the British public, even at the cost of his health.

[Lindelle]

I watched that two weekends ago.

[Eddie_uk]

Over on the Queen Alexandra thread Eric Lowe (The name alone causes me to shudder) reported that Queen Mary cut David off following the abdication. I don't think this is accruate.

Following Edward VIII's departure for exile Queen Mary wrote "And then came the dreadful good bye as he was leaving that evening for Austria. The whole thing was too pathetic for words"

In autumn 1945 "The Duke wrote an affectionate letter to his mother" asking to see her and if he could stay with her "Queen Mary was delighted"

"Queen Mary was happy to have her "dear eldest son" with her for a week. "Very nice he was, quite like old times; very well informed, knew everything that was going on"

Queen Mary wrote to Queen Elizabeth to "beg & beseech of you & the girls  to see him [DoW] & to bury the hatchet after 15 whole years..I gather D is awfully upset.." following the deathe of GVI.
(Shawcross, 2009)

"My feelings for you as your mother remain the same, and out being parted and the cause of it, grieve me beyond words" July 1938 (Bradford, 1989).

 I hope Eric can now explain how Queen Mary cut the DoW off exactly and include references.