Author Topic: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated  (Read 303102 times)

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Offline ChristineM

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #450 on: September 20, 2005, 07:12:01 AM »
Oh yes, Tsarfan.   I have to confess, I have considered the possibillity of the employment of 'reverse psychology', in Alix's continued, adamant refusals to 'change religion'.   It is interesting to bear in mind the person credited with her capitulation.   Ironic?

There were lots of games going on in a variety of places.   What seems impossible for us to establish is the role played by haemophilia in these games.

tsaria
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by tsaria »

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #451 on: September 20, 2005, 08:54:12 AM »
Quote
I wonder if Alexander and Marie were making an informed bet.  Could they have had reason to suspect that Alix was resolved to refuse Nicholas, and they knew Nicholas would not drop his suit until he heard it directly from her?


(Sorry for the confusion about the birth order of Marie's sons.  Every time I try to remember this geneaology stuff off the top of my head without rechecking the sources, I get it twisted.)


Interesting idea. Perhaps by dropping their vehement refusal to consider Alix, they hoped Nicholas would become less set on it? Sort of reverse psychology--the more you deny something the more the person wants it. If they gave permission and then Alix still declined, NII may have had no recourse but to acquiesce to a parental choice.

As for the birth order--why is it so confusing? Just because every heir & 2nd son since Paul seems to be named Nicholas and Alexander?  ;)

Paul--Alexander I and Nicholas I
Nicholas I--Alexander II
Alexander II--Nixa and Alexander III
Alexander III--Nicholas II and Alexander

They also serve who only stand and wait--John Milton
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Offline ChristineM

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #452 on: September 20, 2005, 11:02:38 AM »
It was an attempt to discover why the author of an article in a magazine dated 1904, wrote that 'only three times since Peter the Great has the crown descended in regular sequence from father to son.'   The point made was this was wrong, in actual fact it was four.   There isn't a problem, Ella.

tsaria

Offline ChristineM

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #453 on: September 20, 2005, 11:25:42 AM »
Perhaps it was a combination.   If they knew of Alix's protestations about changing her religion, Alexander and Marie might have opted for a change of approach and banked on this reverse psychology working.
 
If this was the case, it was a chance they took which failed to pay off.

tsaria  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by tsaria »

bell_the_cat

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #454 on: September 20, 2005, 11:35:53 AM »
Possibly the author of the 1904 article thought that the sequence Paul I - Alexander I was irregular because Paul had to be murdered first in order for Alexander to succeed, something which never happened to the Hohenzollerns.

Just my 2 cents.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by bell_the_cat »

Offline Tsarfan

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #455 on: September 20, 2005, 12:23:21 PM »
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As for the birth order--why is it so confusing? Just because every heir & 2nd son since Paul seems to be named Nicholas and Alexander?  ;)


I guess it could be worse.  Without the Oath of the Tennis Court, I'd probably be stumbling over Louis XXXII and Louis XXXIII.

(Please bear with me, folks.  I'm after my Palace Member stripes this month, but I'm really running out of substantive things to say.  Maybe I'd better just set my sights on Christmas.)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Tsarfan »

Offline isabel

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #456 on: September 20, 2005, 12:49:54 PM »
From "The Romanovs"-by John Van Der Kiste

1.-By Christmas 1890 Queen Victoria had heard than Alix´s sister and Romanov Brother-in-law were doing their best to assist the matchmaking process: "Ella & S. do all they can to bring it about, encouraging & even urging the Boy to do it¡".

Nicholas had an excelent relationship with his oncle Serge and his wife Ella, in fact, Serge was his prefered uncle. Perhaps it was Nicholas who asked them to help him in the marriage project, also, Ella had decided herself to convers to the Orthodox religion, as wife of a Grand Duke, she was not obliged to change her religion, but she decided to do it, ¿who better than she to convince her little sister?.

Ella was 8 years older than Alix, their sisters Victoria an Irene where married, and Ernie was going to do it soon . Perhaps Ella played the "little mother" with her little sister, and thought that a marriage with the Heir of Russia was the better match for her.

2.- (After Alix acepted).-His parents immediatly wrote to him of their delight at the news, mingled with regret that they could not have been sith him al such a happy time. The Tsarina told him that they were both overcome with joy knowing you to be so happy. While the Tzar assured him of the happiness and rejoicing with which everyone greeted the news, and asked him to thanks his dear bride to be for consensting to marry him, and how i wish her to flourish for the joy comfort and peace she has given us by deciding to agree to be your wife.

As Tsaria has said, for me, the Tsar´s acquiscence in a Romanov-Hesse marriage was perhaps because this marriage would stabilize Nicholas and would be finally the better, also, already he was beginning to fear that his own time on earth was running out.

I am a big head, i know, but i continue beliving that haemophilia was not mentioned in this match.

Offline ChristineM

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #457 on: September 20, 2005, 02:50:16 PM »
I am with you Isabel - that is until granduchessella accesses her books and proves otherwise!

tsaria

Offline Tsarfan

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #458 on: September 20, 2005, 07:51:13 PM »
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2.- (After Alix acepted).-His parents immediatly wrote to him of their delight at the news, mingled with regret that they could not have been sith him al such a happy time. The Tsarina told him that they were both overcome with joy knowing you to be so happy. While the Tzar assured him of the happiness and rejoicing with which everyone greeted the news, and asked him to thanks his dear bride to be for consensting to marry him, and how i wish her to flourish for the joy comfort and peace she has given us by deciding to agree to be your wife.

I am a big head, i know, but i continue beliving that haemophilia was not mentioned in this match.


You may be right, but I still wonder.

If this proves Alexander and Marie didn't object to the marriage because of hemophilia, it equally proves they didn't object to the marriage at all.  They seem awfully delighted for people who were raising serious objections earlier to this marriage.  And I think everyone agrees they were quite resolute in their objections at one point.

I would read this letter more as a gracious throwing in of the towel on a lost argument.

Offline isabel

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #459 on: September 21, 2005, 03:36:44 AM »
 You are right, it not proves nothing about haemophilia but it seem that finally they where conformed "...comfort and paeace she has given us by deciding to agree to be your wife". Te Tzar don´t seem to be preocupated about any illness.

My opinion is that in the beginning, they where not agree with the election of their son, basicly because the bride was German and they prefered other posibilitys for The future Tzar and for Russia. In fact, even after their engement society in Sr. Petersburg still looked coldly on the marriage because the British element.

Also, i don´t think that Alix personality preocuped them. In fact, i belive that M.F. wouldn´t had a good relationship with her daugther in law, Alix or any other bride, she was not prepared to be the Douagner and not the Empress.

Finally the Tzar was not in good wealth, this was definitive to accelere the marriage.

About if they were or not informed of the risk of the haemophilia, we will never know exactly, the same discussion than in Spain with Ella and Alfonso XIII, every one has his theorie but it is imposible to prove it.

We only can have an oppinion based in the facts we know.


Offline ChristineM

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #460 on: September 21, 2005, 05:04:10 AM »
Tsarfan - you have not LOST the argument.   We have all GAINED.   I speak for myself, but I do think the debate has been illuminating for all of us.   Not least for you and me.  

I, for one, am eternally grateful to you for making me THINK.   Rather than pay lipservice to the source material I have accessed over the years, I have been forced to confront the fact that, in this instance at least, we are left with more questions than answers.   I come away from this debate feeling that Nicholas and Alexandra were little more than bit players in the drama.

Isabel has been right from the outset.   These mind games were just the tip of the iceberg in the shifting dynamics of family, dynastic and national politics.

In my own mind, I have no doubt that haemophilia played an even greater part than I contemplated heretofore.   If we assume Alexander and Marie were aware of the potential of this problem from the outset, they were prepared to overlook it for what they perceived as the bigger picture.   All this had little to do with a young couple in love.  That was secondary.   This is the only satisfactory explanation as to why they, so easily, didn't just capitulate, but became protagonists.

Perhaps there is something in my suspicion that Alexandra was aware that she was more a liability than an asset.   Perhaps Alexandra really was much more realistic regarding haemophilia and its ramifications than I, for one, ever imagined.   This, for me, now becomes the only viable reason to her objections to marrying Nicholas.   All the indicators point to this.   She refused to marry elsewhere.   She longed for her own family.   She was alone with Ernie, playing First Lady, until she was supplanted by Ducky.   What did the future hold for her?   With the exception of the occasional rather mild, for her, interjection from Queen Victoria, her entire family was in favour of the marriage.   Nicholas was in love with her.   She was in love with Nicholas.   Giving up religion?   It wasn't as though she was being required to turn her back on Christianity.

Alexandra was reared on the tragic story of little Frittie.   She had to make annual pilgrimages to his grave   The window he fell through had been converted into a stained glass memorial.   She lived with that every day of her life.

What could she do when all parties were promoting the match - ultimately sealed by a man she loathed, but he was a major player both within the family and international politics - the German Kaiser?  Why was 'Cousin Willie' selected to apply pressure when it looked as though Nicholas would walk away?   At the end of the day, Alexandra was left with no choice, she had to conform.

Kerensky wrote - 'If there had been no Rasputin, there would have been no Lenin.'

I would take that further.   Had there been no haemophilia, there would have been no Russian revolution.

tsaria

 
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by tsaria »

Robert_Hall

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #461 on: September 21, 2005, 05:53:52 AM »
Tsaria, do you honestly believe that the child's disease was THE cause of the Russian revolution?
That revolution was born long before he, or any of them were surely.
As for Alexandra's enemies: well she provided plenty of ammunition for them did she not ?

Offline ChristineM

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #462 on: September 21, 2005, 06:15:27 AM »
Robert, I am using the 'child's disease' metaphorically as well as literally.

If, as we appear to have determined, Alexander III and Marie Feodorovna were aware of Alix's haemophilic status and, at the end of the day, they chose to ignore this, I return to my contention.

tsaria

Offline ChristineM

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #463 on: September 21, 2005, 06:38:29 AM »
As for Alexandra's Enemies, Robert, I think you will concede that - of them all - haemophilia was Enemy No.1.

tsaria

Offline isabel

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #464 on: September 21, 2005, 07:49:56 AM »
Dears Tsarfan and Tsaria... if this debate is beeing so interesting it´s grace of you and your points of view of this part of  the story.

Tsarfan...why do you think you have lost the argument?...certenly not¡ your arguments are as valids as mines, Tsaria is wright, we all win. If we all have the same opinions , this debate would not have any sense.

Really, i don´t think that Alix could thought she was a liability,....she was in love , she was young, she was beauty, she was a Royal, and she had a good wealth (supossing of course that she didn´t knew the real risk of haemophilia)....why a liability?

The only think that disturbed her in this math was the religion.

The four Hesse sisters were extremly pious and devoted (Ella became a nun). Thier mother Alice encouraged them this devotion. After the death of Frittie, May and the mother, this devotion increased, perhaps it was the girl´s comfort with regard to their sorrow.

Alix was firm in her religious ideas, she didn´t want to change, even for love, the religion in Alix mind was in my opinion essentia. Ella get married to GDS, but she was not obliged to change as wife of a GD, if she changed she did her choice. To Alix it was an imposition. Is the same case than with Ena, who suffered a lot too with this.

Tsaria, about the Revolution i am not sure...it so complicated. Who knows, perhaps Nicholas would had abdicate in his son, if Alexei would be a wealthy boy. Perhaps the Revolution would existed later, perhaps Alexei would had been the Last Tzar.