Author Topic: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated  (Read 330616 times)

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feodorovna

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #780 on: May 14, 2011, 06:07:11 AM »
Alixz, as a new poster, I have huge empathy with what you have to say about Alexandra. Like you, I find that understanding her is easier than liking her, however, when I examine the factors which made her what she was I feel that I must try harder.
A very brief look at Nicholas shows us that Tsaravitch though he was, in personality he was totally overshadowed-dominated?-by his father and uncles, by his mother and sisters. It follows then that he would look for, in a wife, a strong personality replicating that of his childhood rolemodels. Psychology tells us that when we meet our VIP,in that first instant, we know, at a primal level, that this one will fulfill our needs. Thus it probably was for both of them when they met as children-the dye was already cast.
Alicky's childhood, far removed from the opulence of the Russian court, in provincial Germany, probably bore strong resemblance to the English court where her mother had spent her own childhood. Certainly, I feel that Queen Victoria's influence there would have been strong and would become more so. One can only imagine the sense of loneliness and isolation that Alicky must have felt after her siblings and her mother died and it seems perfectly natural that her loving Granny would take her under her wing, but separating her from her remaining siblings at such a hugely traumatic point in her life may have given rise to the problems she had with relating to other people, a skill which would have been an enormous advantage to her later on ,added to which, the domesticity of the English court with reclusive, widowed Granny was hardly ideal preparation for life in the decadent Russian court. An interesting scenario has QV admonishing an Alicky eagerly showing off her engagement "baubles" with "Now Alicky, you mustn't get too proud"!!!!! This, then, is a part of the background of the child who became the hated Empress of all the Russias. Could it have been different? Given the circumstances, I think not.

Alixz

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #781 on: May 14, 2011, 09:36:36 AM »
I just recently read the article that Paul Gilbert posted about the "White Flower Festival" that Alexandra began in 1911 and was resumed in 2005 in Livadia.

While reading that article and looking at the pictures that Paul provided, it was easy to think that Alexandra wasn't such a bad Empress after all.  Here she showed her organizational skills and her thoughtfulness and her true need to help those less fortunate and to make a difference.

While I know that as a Empress and mother and wife and granddaughter and sister, Alexandra had many things to deal with and many of those things influenced her personality and her way of dealing with each portion of her life.

I also know that much of what we know about her from her correspondence would never have been made public, had she not died abruptly and in the way that she did.  And it was the "baby talk" and the pushy comments to Nicholas and the ever present need to rely on Rasputin to the exclusion of all others in the care of Alexei that make many of us see her in a very bad light.

She comes across as a "passive/aggressive" personality.  Someone who aggressively sought to have her own way, but then tempered it with passive apologies and requests for "forgiveness".  Nicholas obviously did not see this behavior as anything to worry about, but reading it from a 20th century viewpoint, I find it nauseating.  I see Alexandra as a manipulator.

So within this one woman there lived the Empress who would go out of her way to help those she saw as needy, but would, on the other hand, manipulate her husband (who was very easy to manipulate - it takes two) and alienate everyone else.  All the while, living at a great remove from the actual troubles that were growing and brewing in Russia during the Great War, (of course, she did work hard during the war at running hospitals and coordinating her war time charities and hospital trains), she began the job (with Nicholas's sanctions) of running the government slowly and inexorably into ruin.

 

Offline violetta

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #782 on: May 14, 2011, 01:17:27 PM »
Alixz intended to find out more about the attitude of people of Hesse towards their Grand Duchess Alice. She wanted to find out ( to find evidence) whether she was leiked/disliked/respected/hated/revered. In fact, GD Alice was a very fascinating figure. She dared to break away from her powerful mother`s world outlook and act in her own way.  She was, as we would say now, a feminist. She dared not only to acknowledge  that the women`s problems existed but she was brave enough to try to find solutions to these problems.  But I also see her weaknesses: her excessive spititual searchings, her tendency to put too much on her shoulders. She exhausted herself because of her inability to stop. Even when on holidays she was unable to relax. Instead, she visited some charit insti

Offline violetta

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #783 on: May 14, 2011, 01:26:04 PM »
She visited some charity institutions instead of relaxing with her children and husband . She died not only because of the disease but because of her weak body and her depressed spirit. She just wasn`t able to fight the disease.

Offline violetta

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #784 on: May 14, 2011, 01:41:40 PM »
On Princess Alice from HESSIAN TAPESTRY, p. 172

There was general and genuine love and admiration for the Princess, for the work she had done in the hospitals during the wars, for her care of sick children and mentally deficient, and for her efforts to improve living conditions for the poor. But on the point of higher education and more jobs being opened to women, opinion was divided. The  older generation was dead set against such emancipation, fearing that it would lead to  neglect of home duties. The younger was more open in its opinion, asking  endless questions about the work of Octavia Hill and mary Carpenter. Underlying the objections, was a marked resentment that a Princess from England should try to teach Germans how to order their lives, which lent the assumption that matters were better arranged in the land of her birth  than in the land of her adoption, and thus savoured of patronization.

Offline violetta

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #785 on: May 14, 2011, 02:10:51 PM »
When the discussion on the building of the workers` flat started Princess Alice suggested that there had to be a bathroom on each floor for common use but her proposal wasn`t readily accepted

from HESSIAN TAPESTRY  p.173

This new-fangled notion on the necessity of personal cleanliness met with some surprise and opposition. An elderly and irate gentlemen rose to his feet and roundly condemned the idea as modern nonsense and obviously English, and unwanted in Hesse. Before sitting down he announced that he himself had never had a bath in his life.  there were also sniffs of disapproval over the Frauen Tag, or Women Conference which had been held at Darmstadt under the leadership of the Princess and miss Mary Carpenter. 

Offline violetta

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #786 on: May 14, 2011, 04:32:14 PM »

On Princess Alice, GD of Hessse, in Darmstadt


From Luise and Victoria, p. 20

The penury was something that the little Princess didn`t bargain for.  brought up among the comforts of Windsor, Balmoral, Osborne and Buckingham Palace, she had not had to consider things like domestic economy. And now, here she was, married to a foreigner at the innocent age of 19, with a child, a home to build and arrange and then run on a royal shoe-string budget, all the while conforming to  local ways – or, sometimes, rebelling against them.
Prince Alexander`s daughter Marie saw her I those early days through the eyes of a 12-year-old child:” She was a foreigner, some from distant England, and, as I soon remarked, did not fit in at all with Darmstadt connections. I often felt sorry for her,she was so kind so congenial to us, more so than our Hessian relatives, and in a different way…{she} was a most attractive and arresting personait;her voice particularly, and her pretty mouth with its even teeth, aroused my admiration.

Offline violetta

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #787 on: May 14, 2011, 04:50:07 PM »
I`ll tr to find more info on Alice in Hesse. I am sure I came across such information whie reading THE HESSIAN TAPESTRY. I`m pretty sure that the upper classes of Hesse dislikde Alice, their future Landesmutter. Mabe it wasn`t dislike. It was the fact that the misperceived and misinterpreted Queen Victoria`s daughter who differed so much from them, provincial citizens. She was like a creature from a different realm. It was too much for them to accept a foreign princess who differed from them to a very great extent.


If we have a look at the life of both the daughter and the mother (Alix and Alice) we obviously can detect some similarities as the quoted passages suggest. It might also be the case with all foreign princesses marring into foreign royal families. A majority of foreign princesses had similar experiences.

1. Both Alice and Alix were princesses from abroad. Alix was so Englsih in her ways and evrday habits that  it provoked discontent and disapproval. Alix was English in her was but at the same time she came from a minor German Duchy, petty German court that in tur also influenced her world outlook and behavior.   Robert Massie tells how during one of the balls the Empress sent her lady-in-waiting to inform Russian ladies that "we don`t wear such low decolletages in Darmstadt". Mosolov in his book expresses the opinion that AF`s outlook was that of a petty German princess coming from a petty German court. Her mind was too narrow to understand the elaborate Russian court and its rules.

Offline violetta

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #788 on: May 14, 2011, 05:03:24 PM »
2. The Russian court was used to foreign princesses. There were so many German princesses in the Russian court and Alix was one of them. The majorit of them fitted in the elaborate Russian court though they also came from minor German duchies. The Russian court was pretty cosmopolitan. I think that Alice might have experienced more troubles in Darmstadt. She came from a bigger court, definitely more cosmopolitan. Her father was an educated man, even an intellectual. Alice wasn`t as educated as her elder sister Victoria but she considerably differed from peope in her adopted country. While Alix married up ( I mean that she came in touch with a more sophisticated and  cosmopolitan world ) Alice married down as she had to deal with people who were less sophisticated than hersef and the peope she had to deal with in her native country.

Alixz

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #789 on: May 15, 2011, 09:25:45 AM »
violetta:  Thank you for your research.

I had intended to re read Hessian Tapestry to see what David Duff had to say about Princess Alice, but I haven't gotten there yet.

I don't have Luise and Victoria is that the full name of the book?  Is it about Prince Luise of Battenberg and Princess Victoria of Hesse?

We are so used to "working" women and independent women that it is hard to remember that in the mid 1800s women (with the exception of Queen Victoria) were not expected to take interest in anything except their homes and children.  When I said "Gross Mutter" about Princess Alice, I did mean Lands-mutter. (Big difference!  :-)  )

In the case of Princess Alice, it could be said that she "married down" and in the case of Princess Alix that she "married up".

I do think, though, that the old quote from Massie about the dress is thought now to have been made up.  Massie didn't know that when he used it and others have used it as well to show that Princess Alix was provincial and unsophisticated and quite out of tune with society in St. Petersburg.

It is true that the notion of personal cleanliness was not well received as late as the 1800s and even into the early 1900s in some countries including but not limited to Germany and the United States. People often took baths only once a week and rarely if ever went to the dentist (it was too painful!).  Princess Alice was quite forward thinking in her perception of the need for one bathroom per floor.




Offline violetta

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #790 on: May 15, 2011, 09:49:03 AM »
Its "Louis and Victoria: the First Mountbattens" by Richard Hough, ISBN : 0 09 121160 3

As for the Hessian Tapestry, I have looked through it only partially. David Duff says a lot about people`s attitude  towards Princess ALice in this book, especially about her first years  Hesse. I`m planning to look through the book to see what is said about her in it.

 

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #791 on: May 15, 2011, 09:51:46 AM »
'Princess Alice was quite forward thinking in her perception of the need for one bathroom per floor.'

Definitely. There is that old chestnut that when the first council houses were built in Britain in the 1930s many argued that there was no point in putting bathrooms in them as the working classes would only use the baths to keep coal in.

Ann

Alixz

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #792 on: May 15, 2011, 11:29:22 AM »
I know that in our "clean" society that it is hard to remember that even in the early 20th century, as Ann pointed out, that some thought that bathrooms for all was not a necessity of that people wouldn't know what to do with then if they had them.

But there is a way of thinking now that we may be too clean and that we are destroying our own bodies' ability to fight off mild infections because our clean ways have removed all of the helpful bacteria as well as the harmful ones.  That is why so many antivirals and antibacterials are no longer prescribed and we just have to "get though" the illness.

Anyone who has read James Clavell's  Shogun will remember that the main character thinks that taking a bath would make him "sick".  That book takes place in 1600s Japan, but the European idea of bathing making one sick was true then and took a long time to become an obsolete way of thinking.

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #793 on: May 17, 2011, 06:55:40 PM »
We have wandered very far from topic. Kindly return to the topic - Alexandra - slandered and hated - or feel free to start a new topic!

STKF

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #794 on: May 26, 2011, 08:41:29 PM »
Jacob , Jacob, Jacob,

Jacob to say your post is harsh, is an understatement! I have been reading about Nicholas and Alexandra since I was 17, I am 53 now. In reading about Alexandra's personality words like evil and stupid have never been two of them. She was tossed into the deep end of pool, sort of speak. Jacob will you sit there with a straight face and say that if your child was sick. You would never let someone in who said they could help. Even if it was someone like "Rasputin" I believe Alexandra to be a a very good protector of her husband & family. She was a mother and wife who would  have done anything for her family.