Author Topic: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated  (Read 293806 times)

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Offline PAVLOV

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #660 on: November 10, 2009, 08:21:19 AM »
I have recently finished reading a book written by a senior court official before 1917, and found the following paragraph quite interesting :

" Misfortune seemed to be her lot. Four times her hopes of giving an heir to the crown were brought to naught as one girl after another was born to her, adding to her blighted life the knowledge that in this respect Russia was bitterly disappointed. Her relations with her husband were affectionate, but not tender, and she never knew how to manage him, or to develop by her sympathy the best side of his nature. Her manner towards him, also, was not what it ought to have been. She treated him more like a naughty boy than like a monarch whose first subject she was.
In the early days of their marriage it was related that one evening, when they had a few people to tea at Tsarskoye Selo, feeling tired and desiring to withdraw, she turned towards the Emperor, and said to him in English, a language always spoken in the Imperial family, " Now come, my boy; it is time for me to go to bed"  One may imagine the stupefaction which this phrase caused among a people accustomed to all the rigidity of etiquette which had always ruled the Court of St Petersburg. They could not understand how an Empress could forget herself so far in the presence of others as to address the Tsar of All the Russias as " my boy"."

I was very surprised by this revelation, and wonder if it was not just gossip, as she was so uptight in the presence of other people. but it does speak volumes about the way in which she dominated her husband. 

   

Offline Teddy

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #661 on: November 10, 2009, 11:24:12 AM »
I have recently finished reading a book written by a senior court official before 1917, and found the following paragraph quite interesting :

" Misfortune seemed to be her lot. Four times her hopes of giving an heir to the crown were brought to naught as one girl after another was born to her, adding to her blighted life the knowledge that in this respect Russia was bitterly disappointed. Her relations with her husband were affectionate, but not tender, and she never knew how to manage him, or to develop by her sympathy the best side of his nature. Her manner towards him, also, was not what it ought to have been. She treated him more like a naughty boy than like a monarch whose first subject she was.
In the early days of their marriage it was related that one evening, when they had a few people to tea at Tsarskoye Selo, feeling tired and desiring to withdraw, she turned towards the Emperor, and said to him in English, a language always spoken in the Imperial family, " Now come, my boy; it is time for me to go to bed"  One may imagine the stupefaction which this phrase caused among a people accustomed to all the rigidity of etiquette which had always ruled the Court of St Petersburg. They could not understand how an Empress could forget herself so far in the presence of others as to address the Tsar of All the Russias as " my boy"."

Pavlov, what is your source? Which book, which author. You say always that your posts are based on facts. So you would not mind to share the title and author of your book.



I was very surprised by this revelation, and wonder if it was not just gossip, as she was so uptight in the presence of other people. but it does speak volumes about the way in which she dominated her husband. 

   

Offline Helen

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #662 on: November 10, 2009, 12:20:02 PM »
Pavlov, what is your source? Which book, which author. You say always that your posts are based on facts. So you would not mind to share the title and author of your book. 

Teddy, the original source is "Behind the Veil at the Russian Court" (1913) by 'Count Paul Vassili', a pen name of Catherine Radziwill. Elsewehere on this forum, she and her books have been described as 'a terrible gossip', 'not the most reliable of sources', someone who 'took down notes from gossipmongers from Berlin to St. Petersburg. Most of it was not backed by fact', 'sadly confused', 'full of untruths and out right fiction'  etc. The qualification 'full of untruths and out right fiction' was given by Alixz, by the way.
"The Correspondence of the Empress Alexandra of Russia with Ernst Ludwig and Eleonore, Grand Duke and Duchess of Hesse. 1878-1916"  -  http://www.bod.de/index.php?id=296&objk_
"Grand Duke Ernst Ludwig and Princess Alix of Hesse and by Rhine in Italy - 1893"

Offline Eddie_uk

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #663 on: November 10, 2009, 02:07:04 PM »
Didn't she also say awful things about the Empress Frederick? & also spent time in jail!! Interesting sounding lady......
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Offline historyfan

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #664 on: November 10, 2009, 08:40:56 PM »
I have recently finished reading a book written by a senior court official before 1917, and found the following paragraph quite interesting :

" Misfortune seemed to be her lot. Four times her hopes of giving an heir to the crown were brought to naught as one girl after another was born to her, adding to her blighted life the knowledge that in this respect Russia was bitterly disappointed. Her relations with her husband were affectionate, but not tender, and she never knew how to manage him, or to develop by her sympathy the best side of his nature. Her manner towards him, also, was not what it ought to have been. She treated him more like a naughty boy than like a monarch whose first subject she was.
In the early days of their marriage it was related that one evening, when they had a few people to tea at Tsarskoye Selo, feeling tired and desiring to withdraw, she turned towards the Emperor, and said to him in English, a language always spoken in the Imperial family, " Now come, my boy; it is time for me to go to bed"  One may imagine the stupefaction which this phrase caused among a people accustomed to all the rigidity of etiquette which had always ruled the Court of St Petersburg. They could not understand how an Empress could forget herself so far in the presence of others as to address the Tsar of All the Russias as " my boy"."

I was very surprised by this revelation, and wonder if it was not just gossip, as she was so uptight in the presence of other people. but it does speak volumes about the way in which she dominated her husband. 

   

Let's pretend for a moment that the source is reliable and factual.  The phrases "...it was related..." and "One may imagine..." would suggest secondhand information at best. 

I recall reading not too long ago, in "Born To Rule" by Julia Gelardi, about a princess (not one of the ones featured in the book) who received a dressing-down by Queen Victoria for stating that she must "go to bed."  According to one of Gelardi's sources, the queen addressed the princess in question:  "Young lady, a princess shall say 'I believe it is time for me to retire.'"

This makes me believe also that Alix, under Victoria's wing as she was for the vast majority of her childhood, would never state that it was "time to go to bed", no matter who she was addressing or what she addressed that person as.

Offline Belochka

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #665 on: November 10, 2009, 10:02:35 PM »
I have recently finished reading a book written by a senior court official before 1917, and found the following paragraph quite interesting :

" ..." Now come, my boy; it is time for me to go to bed" 

This makes me believe also that Alix, under Victoria's wing as she was for the vast majority of her childhood, would never state that it was "time to go to bed", no matter who she was addressing or what she addressed that person as.

You are absolutely correct historyfan! Radziwill's book is just another farcical publication, which receives more attention than it deserves.   

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Offline PAVLOV

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #666 on: November 11, 2009, 06:06:29 AM »
Teddy
Behind the Veil at the Russian Court. Page 234, Paul Vasili, Elibron Classics,Isbn1-4021-9748-p ( paperback)

Offline PAVLOV

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #667 on: November 11, 2009, 06:33:56 AM »
Teddy,
In future I will include the page no's, the author and the isbn no, specially for your benefit. Will that make you happy ? Perhaps you should do the same.

One of the very nice things about this forum is that we can share information, it is up to everyone to decide what to make of it. Your comment is very unfortuanate because it tends to turn people off posting anything on this forum.  Most of us dont have a PHD's in Russian history. We are here because this is fun, and we can share things we have read. O K ?

The author of this book may be suspect in ONE persons opinion, however many of the things written are very factual. I posted this because I thought it was interesting. So take it in whatever spirit you wish.
Perhaps we should all start quoting Authors, Page numbers, ISBN No's in future, to avoid any future confusion.
I will certainly do so from now on.
 

 

Offline Teddy

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #668 on: November 11, 2009, 07:09:37 AM »
Teddy,
In future I will include the page no's, the author and the isbn no, specially for your benefit. Will that make you happy ? Perhaps you should do the same.

One of the very nice things about this forum is that we can share information, it is up to everyone to decide what to make of it. Your comment is very unfortuanate because it tends to turn people off posting anything on this forum.  Most of us dont have a PHD's in Russian history. We are here because this is fun, and we can share things we have read. O K ?

The author of this book may be suspect in ONE persons opinion, however many of the things written are very factual. I posted this because I thought it was interesting. So take it in whatever spirit you wish.
Perhaps we should all start quoting Authors, Page numbers, ISBN No's in future, to avoid any future confusion.
I will certainly do so from now on.
 
PAVLOV, I certainly want to if you like! But it was just a normal question. You don't have to be so snippy dear PAVLOV!

 

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #669 on: November 11, 2009, 08:22:03 AM »
All posts are interesting for what they say about the era and about the people who were there.

All of us, including moderators, have been questioned about our sources.  It is not a personal thing, we just want to know who wrote the book and if the source is reliable.

Radziwill has been shown to be unreliable.  Perhaps she wrote under a pseudonym because, as a woman, she felt that she would be accepted more if her public thought she was a man.  However, she also may have used a pen name to cover the fact that she was an ardent Alexandra hater and a lot of what she wrote was fiction.

Pavlov, please don't take the question of source as a personal affront.  Some days it does feel as if we are being questioned constantly and it is not much fun to post here anymore, but most members just want to know about new (to them) sources so that they can read them.

Offline PAVLOV

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #670 on: November 12, 2009, 06:07:05 AM »
O.K. Point taken.

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Alexandra Slandered and
« Reply #671 on: November 24, 2009, 09:51:19 AM »
tsar is Czar or  similar Kaiser in germany come out from the latin name Caesar. Nicola II was a good man but unable to be a very Caesar or tsar.

Offline PAVLOV

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #672 on: December 30, 2009, 09:19:51 AM »
I think that Alexandra's treatment of Ella was really nasty. I am referring to the last meeting they had, when she virtually threw her own sister out of the palace. Prinsess Yussoupov recieved the same treatment. This is definately not the behaviour of a normal person, is it ? Both of them went there with the best intentions in the world, and were treated abominably.
Typical of Alexandra. I think she went a bit mental in the end.   

Offline Teddy

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #673 on: December 30, 2009, 09:51:47 AM »
I think that Alexandra's treatment of Ella was really nasty. I am referring to the last meeting they had, when she virtually threw her own sister out of the palace. Princess Yussoupov received the same treatment. This is definitely not the behaviour of a normal person, is it ? Both of them went there with the best intentions in the world, and were treated abominably.
Typical of Alexandra. I think she went a bit mental in the end.  

Apart for your point that she went a bit mental at the end, I can agree with you. Of course you must always be remind that Alexandra was still the Empress, so in rank much higher then a Grand Duchess and of a noble Princess. So you can not see entirely everything whats on your mind, a still have a respect towards the person above you in this case, The Empress. But second, as for Al icky and Ella, they were still also sisters. That must be a reason not to thread eachother in this way. But were 2 persons are 2 to blame. I think that if the revolution that the relationship between them would have been restored.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 09:55:20 AM by Teddy »

Offline historyfan

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #674 on: December 30, 2009, 09:09:48 PM »
I think that Alexandra's treatment of Ella was really nasty. I am referring to the last meeting they had, when she virtually threw her own sister out of the palace. Prinsess Yussoupov recieved the same treatment. This is definately not the behaviour of a normal person, is it ? Both of them went there with the best intentions in the world, and were treated abominably.
Typical of Alexandra. I think she went a bit mental in the end.   

I simply can't imagine the level of stress they were all, but particularly Alexandra, under at that time.  : (