Author Topic: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated  (Read 294042 times)

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Alixz

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #690 on: April 02, 2011, 08:24:58 AM »
In the time that Alexandra was at Livadia waiting with all of the family as Alexander III lay dying, she wrote this is Nicholas's diary:

"Sweet child, pray to God. He will comfort you.  Don't feel too low.  Your Sunny is praying for you and the beloved patient...  Be firm and make the doctors come to you every day and tell you how they find him...so that you are always the first to know.  Don't let others e put first and you left out.  You are Father's dear son and must be told all and asked about everything.  Show your own mind and don't let others forget who you are.  Forgive me, Lovy."

I said ministers, but it was doctors. Alexandra was already telling Nicholas to "show your own mind" when IMHO, it was her own mind that she was expressing.  She was already telling him how to act and they weren't even married yet.

Doctors hurried from the bedside to the Empress, scarcely noticing the shy young man and woman standing outside the door or waiting at the foot of the stairs.  In time, Alix became offended by this treatment.  Her lover, whom she honored was Heir to the Throne.  If this huge Tsar whom she scarcely knew should die,her fiance would be the Tsar.  Yet he was treated like a nobody.

This quote is from page 43 - chapter Four - Marriage.  Nicholas and Alexandra  by Robert Massie
« Last Edit: April 02, 2011, 08:29:37 AM by Alixz »

Alixz

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #691 on: April 02, 2011, 08:34:37 AM »
Janet - As to your other questions, I will have to do some research to find the exact quotes and sources.

Your requests for sources and quotes sound rather peremptory.

I am sorry to sound put out, but this "interference" of Alexandra into Nicholas's mind and diary is fairly well known to anyone who has ever read a biography of the Empress.  It is in all of the the books from Massie to King and everyone in between.

Later on the interference transferred to the letters that she wrote to him while they were apart.  Alexandra was as bad as Empress Marie in treating Nicholas like a school boy for most of his life.

Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #692 on: April 02, 2011, 09:43:56 AM »
In the time that Alexandra was at Livadia waiting with all of the family as Alexander III lay dying, she wrote this is Nicholas's diary:

"Sweet child, pray to God. He will comfort you.  Don't feel too low.  Your Sunny is praying for you and the beloved patient...  Be firm and make the doctors come to you every day and tell you how they find him...so that you are always the first to know.  Don't let others e put first and you left out.  You are Father's dear son and must be told all and asked about everything.  Show your own mind and don't let others forget who you are.  Forgive me, Lovy."

I said ministers, but it was doctors.

Indeed. And she doesn't mention his mother. It could equally be inferred that she was offended by the omnipresent uncles - or, indeed, government ministers - pushing into the scene.


Alexandra was already telling Nicholas to "show your own mind" when IMHO, it was her own mind that she was expressing.  She was already telling him how to act and they weren't even married yet.

Doctors hurried from the bedside to the Empress, scarcely noticing the shy young man and woman standing outside the door or waiting at the foot of the stairs.  In time, Alix became offended by this treatment.  Her lover, whom she honored was Heir to the Throne.  If this huge Tsar whom she scarcely knew should die,her fiance would be the Tsar.  Yet he was treated like a nobody.

This quote is from page 43 - chapter Four - Marriage.  Nicholas and Alexandra  by Robert Massie

What Massie says (and this is of course his inference from the diary entry) is that she was offended by the treatment of the future autocrat. What is Massie's source for alleging that the Empress was the person they hurried to and that this is why Alexandra was offended? This is what I am questioning.
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Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #693 on: April 02, 2011, 09:54:02 AM »

Your requests for sources and quotes sound rather peremptory.

I don't mean to sound peremptory - it's basically meant to be a challenge for proof! :-) I start these discussions in a rush and then wish I hadn't for various reasons....I DO think that anything posted here is open to challenge, but basically - people can get offended if one challenges their views....I could say "what is the source, PLEASE, I guess - but that to me sounds dishonest and coy, as I know the source well. Oh well....

I am sorry to sound put out, but this "interference" of Alexandra into Nicholas's mind and diary is fairly well known to anyone who has ever read a biography of the Empress.  It is in all of the the books from Massie to King and everyone in between.

Later on the interference transferred to the letters that she wrote to him while they were apart.  Alexandra was as bad as Empress Marie in treating Nicholas like a school boy for most of his life.

I'm aware of the quote, but what I am questioning is the suggestion that there are other entries beyond this incident at this stage in their life - and, also perhaps, the exact interpretation Massie placed on it, though his sensitivity to the young girl who was offended at seeing her beloved pushed aside is noted; he is not using the harsh terms like "self-righteous" or suggesting that this was part of a pattern of her thinking she knew better than Nicholas. Whether we like this or not, Alix was marrying a man who stood at the pinnacle of a highly autocratic government, and she had had this fact dinned into her beforehand, as had he. He was also part of a highly quarrelsome family which was part of the idea of autocratic government in itself, and had its own ideas about who was best suited to the role. It was her role as a nineteenth-century wife to support Nicholas; I reject the suggestion that somehow she was responsible for his views and he would have retreated from them without her; OR that there is anything wrong in her urging him to stand up for himself as man and future Tsar. I really don't think - as you know - that the failings of the whole regime come back to AF.

Anyway, I WILL cut out of this now; else we go round in circles.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2011, 10:03:14 AM by Janet Ashton »
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Offline Elisabeth

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #694 on: April 02, 2011, 10:27:34 AM »
Sorry to interject here, but I do think that most women (Alexandra Feodorovna included) whose husbands have very strong mothers know that occasionally steps need to be taken to curb that influence. Not to eliminate it, but to curb it. Because it can be a very destructive influence, certainly not intended as such, but on occasion emasculating and disempowering, nonetheless.

I think Nicholas's misfortune was that his mother was not only an extremely strong personality, but also not very intelligent, while his wife, also, was an extremely strong personality but not very intelligent either. So in both cases it was basically the blind leading the blind, or the blind trying to help the blind to find his own two feet. It was simply a tragic situation all around.

However, I have to agree with Janet that AF had little or nothing to do with the coming of the Russian Revolution. It's clear, for example, that she adopted her husband's political beliefs (blindly!) after their marriage. Hook, line, and sinker. Face it, after her husband, in 1905 and again in 1917, she was the most stalwart supporter of Russian autocracy on this planet (because she loved and supported her husband with all the strength of her being, and he was a believer in the autocratic system). But even if Nicholas and Alexandra had been the most democratically minded monarchs imaginable, I suspect World War I would have destroyed them anyway. Arguably it would not have cost them and their children their lives, only their thrones. Arguably. Although it should be kept in mind that given the triple forces of landlessness, poverty, and the brutality of World War I combat, any Russian revolution that came was bound to turn violent in the end.
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Alixz

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #695 on: April 02, 2011, 10:37:02 AM »
Janet, since I know you (from the forum) and know your writings and I have a copy of The German Woman I knew that you knew the sources and so I was wondering why you should be asking so abruptly.

I am not saying that Massie said that Alix was interfering, I am saying that I think she is interfering.  I was only getting the quote from his book.  I could have gotten it many other places, but it is always to easy to find things in his book.

On page 42 Massie says:  Doctors, government ministers and court officials treated Marie not only with the normal deference due an empress, but with the extra consideration accorded a human being facing a great personal ordeal.  Doctors hurried from the bedside to the Empress, scarcely noticing the shy young man and woman standing outside the door or waiting at the foot of the stairs.

And no, as you must already know, Massie does not give any sources for his words.

I know that you look at Alexandra differently than I do.  I have little respect for her sloppy romantic notions that then became her more than autocratic personality which she wielded while all the time refusing to be the autocrat's wife as she should have been.

I never saw the Victorian Woman in the 19th century as the support of her husband.  It was her duty to be subservient to him.  Women were still property in this time. They had few rights and certainly not the right to question their husbands.

I think some of us tend to color our views on Victorian womanhood with the very picture of the female in charge as Queen Victoria was over Prince Albert, but even he had problems with not being the man of the house.  Alexandra was no Queen Victoria.  She did not have the wisdom or the ability to read people as her grandmother did and so she tried to act like a sovereign without the talents of a sovereign.

Alexandra just happened to find a man who had little self confidence and/or training and then in the name of undying love began to walk all over him.

Through out their lives, Alexandra gave advice in the guise of being "the little wifey" and treated the Tsar of all the Russians as a recalcitrant school boy.  Just another of her many children.

If you still wish, I will get more sources to post here as I know that you don't need me to point out where the information is to be found.  I would do it for those who are not as familiar with the source books as you and I are.  

But from the day that Alexandra began writing in Nicholas's diary, her reign of advice giving began.  I my opinion most of her advice was bad and she should have concentrated on her job of bring Empress Consort, not trying to be the Emperor's backbone.

Had she done a superlative job of being what she was, Empress Consort, instead of alienating the entire Imperial Family and cloistering herself and Nicholas and her children at Tsarskoe Selo, I might see a reason for her interference in matters that were not in her job description.  But she chose to close herself and her family off from the court and the rest of the country and then she still tried to act like she could play an important role in the life of Russia by nagging Nicholas until even he (and I know you want my sources) said it was easier to give in than to put up with her anger.

And Elizabeth - I think that Alexandra was a stalwart supporter of autocracy not for her husband but for her son.  All she cared about was preserving the autocracy for Alexei.  I don't doubt that she loved Nicholas, but by 1905 and then again in 1917, she was more worried about the future for "Baby" than for any other reason.

« Last Edit: April 02, 2011, 10:42:01 AM by Alixz »

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #696 on: April 02, 2011, 10:45:56 AM »
I don't think Alexandra was the sole cause of the Russian Revolution (and I doubt even her sternest critics would claim that she was), but her behaviour and attitudes were certainly a factor.

There was certainly a tendency to shower male relations with advice among Queen Victoria's descendants. The Empress Frederick and Wilhelm II is perhaps the extreme case, but Victoria was no slouch herself when it came to advice. Perhaps Alexandra grew up with the idea that if you love somebody you tell them what to do! I know Alexandra's mother died when she was six, but was she an enthusiastic adviser of her husband and older children?

Ann

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #697 on: April 02, 2011, 10:46:06 AM »

And Elizabeth - I think that Alexandra was a stalwart supporter of autocracy not for her husband but for her son.  All she cared about was preserving the autocracy for Alexei.  I don't doubt that she loved Nicholas, but by 1905 and then again in 1917, she was more worried about the future for "Baby" than for any other reason.

I simply disagree. Remember, Alexandra was forced to make a choice in spring 1918, in Tobolsk. She could either stay with her very ill son in Tobolsk or accompany her husband under guard to an unknown destination (she and Nicholas presumed it was Moscow, where he would probably face trial). If all Alexandra ever cared about was her "Baby" son then she would have stayed with Aleksei and left Nicholas to his fate. But Alexandra loved her husband first and foremost, as most women who fall in love with one man forever do. In other words, no matter how many children they might have, no matter how much they adore those children, the husband always comes first with such women. And I know a lot of people here would actually fault Alexandra for this trait -- but I don't. In my opinion, one of the few uplifting things to be gleaned from the lives of the last tsar and tsarina is that they truly loved each other, always and forever, despite every misfortune -- and after all, they had every misfortune that could be imagined heaped on them.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2011, 10:48:55 AM by Elisabeth »
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Offline Elisabeth

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #698 on: April 02, 2011, 11:03:44 AM »
Janet, since I know you (from the forum) and know your writings and I have a copy of The German Woman I knew that you knew the sources and so I was wondering why you should be asking so abruptly.

I am not saying that Massie said that Alix was interfering, I am saying that I think she is interfering.  I was only getting the quote from his book.  I could have gotten it many other places, but it is always to easy to find things in his book.

On page 42 Massie says:  Doctors, government ministers and court officials treated Marie not only with the normal deference due an empress, but with the extra consideration accorded a human being facing a great personal ordeal.  Doctors hurried from the bedside to the Empress, scarcely noticing the shy young man and woman standing outside the door or waiting at the foot of the stairs.

And no, as you must already know, Massie does not give any sources for his words.

I know that you look at Alexandra differently than I do.  I have little respect for her sloppy romantic notions that then became her more than autocratic personality which she wielded while all the time refusing to be the autocrat's wife as she should have been.

I never saw the Victorian Woman in the 19th century as the support of her husband.  It was her duty to be subservient to him.  Women were still property in this time. They had few rights and certainly not the right to question their husbands.

I think some of us tend to color our views on Victorian womanhood with the very picture of the female in charge as Queen Victoria was over Prince Albert, but even he had problems with not being the man of the house.  Alexandra was no Queen Victoria.  She did not have the wisdom or the ability to read people as her grandmother did and so she tried to act like a sovereign without the talents of a sovereign.

Alexandra just happened to find a man who had little self confidence and/or training and then in the name of undying love began to walk all over him.

Through out their lives, Alexandra gave advice in the guise of being "the little wifey" and treated the Tsar of all the Russians as a recalcitrant school boy.  Just another of her many children.

I actually think that like a lot of spouses Nicholas and Alexandra had much in common, including an almost crippling lack of self-confidence. It was only by leaning on each other that they could each individually summon up the courage to deal with life... Not surprisingly, they had a far, far more difficult time of it dealing with reality itself.

I agree that AF's tone with NII in the letters to the front during World War I is irritating and often even infuriating, but it takes two to tango. And I think at this point NII was fully capable of drawing the line with his wife, as he did at least once in his letters, tactfully suggesting to her that she was treating him like a child. And she instantly backpedalled, as I recall, and stopped nagging him. Because he was the monarch and let's face it, whether or not she loved him, ultimately he called the shots.

This whole notion that Nicholas was tied to Alexandra's apron-strings is a myth, she followed his lead in everything but Rasputin, and even there NII, as has been demonstrated over and over again, more often than not seems to have ignored her advice. Even when he seems to have taken it, as historians have pointed out, we must keep in mind that there was only a very limited number of right-wing supporters of the monarchy, much less autocracy, in Russia after 1905. An extremely limited number. So if NII appeared to be "going along" with Alexandra's/Rasputin's wishes in his selection of ministers and other government officials, it's more than likely that Rasputin (with Alexandra's support) was simply presenting NII with the tsar's own wishes, only recast as God-given "prophecies."
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Offline violetta

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #699 on: April 02, 2011, 11:37:08 AM »

And Elizabeth - I think that Alexandra was a stalwart supporter of autocracy not for her husband but for her son.  All she cared about was preserving the autocracy for Alexei.  I don't doubt that she loved Nicholas, but by 1905 and then again in 1917, she was more worried about the future for "Baby" than for any other reason.

I simply disagree. Remember, Alexandra was forced to make a choice in spring 1918, in Tobolsk. She could either stay with her very ill son in Tobolsk or accompany her husband under guard to an unknown destination (she and Nicholas presumed it was Moscow, where he would probably face trial). If all Alexandra ever cared about was her "Baby" son then she would have stayed with Aleksei and left Nicholas to his fate. But Alexandra loved her husband first and foremost, as most women who fall in love with one man forever do. In other words, no matter how many children they might have, no matter how much they adore those children, the husband always comes first with such women. And I know a lot of people here would actually fault Alexandra for this trait -- but I don't. In my opinion, one of the few uplifting things to be gleaned from the lives of the last tsar and tsarina is that they truly loved each other, always and forever, despite every misfortune -- and after all, they had every misfortune that could be imagined heaped on them.



The fact that Alexandra left her ill son and went to unknown destination with her husband testifies to only one thing: at this very moment she viewed herself not as a mother but as the Empress and mother to her country. Though, de facto she was not the Empress any more. She was afraid that after the Bolshevicks had signed the Brest peace treaty and accepted Germans` conditions unequivocally, the Bolshevicks would ask their deposed Emperor to sign this treaty to make it more meaningful , more legitimate. She was ashamed of what the new authorities had done to her beloved country, she suffered so much because she knew about Russia`s withdrawal from the war , about people`s sufferings, about weak position of new Russia after the Russians had betrayed their allies.  She suffered and was ashamed. She suspected that the new authorities would force her husband to sign this treaty so she went with him. she even said that that her husband was forced to sign a document i.e. abdication, once but this time she wouldn`t let him do the same.

Offline violetta

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #700 on: April 02, 2011, 11:45:07 AM »
ref # 690

Alixz, I think you meant that doctors didn't inform Nicholas about A III` condition or informed him too late. He was probably ignored a little, and not everyone demonstrated due respect to Nicholas (at least this is what Alexandra thought)

 In Nicholas`a diary she wrote: " Tell the doctor to come to you first and inform you about his condition...and about everything they need to do. In this way, you will become the first person to be informed...If the doctor needs anything tell him to come to you. You are you father`s favorite son, they should ask you about everything and inform you about everything. Demonstrate your will and don`t let anyone forget who you are".

 
« Last Edit: April 03, 2011, 09:50:28 AM by Alixz »

Offline Elisabeth

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #701 on: April 02, 2011, 11:54:10 AM »

And Elizabeth - I think that Alexandra was a stalwart supporter of autocracy not for her husband but for her son.  All she cared about was preserving the autocracy for Alexei.  I don't doubt that she loved Nicholas, but by 1905 and then again in 1917, she was more worried about the future for "Baby" than for any other reason.

I simply disagree. Remember, Alexandra was forced to make a choice in spring 1918, in Tobolsk. She could either stay with her very ill son in Tobolsk or accompany her husband under guard to an unknown destination (she and Nicholas presumed it was Moscow, where he would probably face trial). If all Alexandra ever cared about was her "Baby" son then she would have stayed with Aleksei and left Nicholas to his fate. But Alexandra loved her husband first and foremost, as most women who fall in love with one man forever do. In other words, no matter how many children they might have, no matter how much they adore those children, the husband always comes first with such women. And I know a lot of people here would actually fault Alexandra for this trait -- but I don't. In my opinion, one of the few uplifting things to be gleaned from the lives of the last tsar and tsarina is that they truly loved each other, always and forever, despite every misfortune -- and after all, they had every misfortune that could be imagined heaped on them.



The fact that Alexandra left her ill son and went to unknown destination with her husband testifies to only one thing: at this very moment she viewed herself not as a mother but as the Empress and mother to her country. Though, de facto she was not the Empress any more. She was afraid that after the Bolshevicks had signed the Brest peace treaty and accepted Germans` conditions unequivocally, the Bolshevicks would ask their deposed Emperor to sign this treaty to make it more meaningful , more legitimate. She was ashamed of what the new authorities had done to her beloved country, she suffered so much because she knew about Russia`s withdrawal from the war , about people`s sufferings, about weak position of new Russia after the Russians had betrayed their allies.  She suffered and was ashamed. She suspected that the new authorities would force her husband to sign this treaty so she went with him. she even said that that her husband was forced to sign a document i.e. abdication, once but this time she wouldn`t let him do the same.

Agh, give me a break. One can believe, think, and feel all these things and still love one's husband and be terrified for his life. The fact of the matter is, and you cannot dispute this, she left Aleksei, her beloved "Baby," when he was still ailing, in order to accompany her husband to an unknown destination for an unknown length of time... Now you will probably argue that Aleksei wasn't desperately ill, the situation wasn't serious -- okay, fine, but you try leaving your sick son and his sisters in the care of a bunch of revolutionaries for an unforeseen, unspecified length of time, perhaps forever -- see how you fare with that! Moreover, I ask you how you're going to dictate the "future" of the "empire" if the "future tsar" is no longer in your own keeping, but in that of the revolutionaries who you are convinced are bent on the destruction of your family and the empire! Moreover, who also have removed your husband from his family. It seems to me that if Aleksandra felt she carried the responsibility of empire with her she would not have left her "Baby" Aleksei for one moment: politically speaking, he represented the future, whatever the Bolsheviks did at Brest-Litovsk, whilst her husband represented the past, which was lost forever.

Might I point out again, too, that in NII and AF we're dealing with completely clueless people -- as a matter of fact, the Bolsheviks didn't give a good goddamn about NII signing the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk. It never even occurred to them that this might be necessary -- simply because it wasn't! A reminder: nobody, I mean nobody but a few die-hards, thin on the ground-- cared about the IF or the restoration of the monarchy in the spring of 1918. That Aleksandra and Nikolai were so concerned that he would have to sign the Treaty just demonstrates once again, for the nth time and as if we needed it, their self-absorption, their hyper-inflated sense of self-importance,  and their pitiful delusions about Russia's desperate political and historical situation.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2011, 11:59:17 AM by Elisabeth »
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Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #702 on: April 03, 2011, 07:50:42 AM »
Janet, since I know you (from the forum) and know your writings and I have a copy of The German Woman I knew that you knew the sources and so I was wondering why you should be asking so abruptly.

I am not saying that Massie said that Alix was interfering, I am saying that I think she is interfering.  I was only getting the quote from his book.  I could have gotten it many other places, but it is always to easy to find things in his book.

On page 42 Massie says:  Doctors, government ministers and court officials treated Marie not only with the normal deference due an empress, but with the extra consideration accorded a human being facing a great personal ordeal.  Doctors hurried from the bedside to the Empress, scarcely noticing the shy young man and woman standing outside the door or waiting at the foot of the stairs.

And no, as you must already know, Massie does not give any sources for his words.

I know that you look at Alexandra differently than I do.  I have little respect for her sloppy romantic notions that then became her more than autocratic personality which she wielded while all the time refusing to be the autocrat's wife as she should have been.

[snippage]

And Elizabeth - I think that Alexandra was a stalwart supporter of autocracy not for her husband but for her son.  All she cared about was preserving the autocracy for Alexei.  I don't doubt that she loved Nicholas, but by 1905 and then again in 1917, she was more worried about the future for "Baby" than for any other reason.



Perhaps, to avoid sounding "abrupt" I should take the time to come straight out with what I think instead of trying to provoke you to defend your views! :-D

I don't think that Alexandra's views of her husband's role were "sloppy romanic notions"; they were pretty core monarchist beliefs, central to a lot of Russia's political and religious life, then and even now (with the resurgence of nationalism). Nor do I think that she cared to preserve the autocracy only for her son: the point was that they had convinced themselves that they were obliged to do so as part of their duty as monarchs. And, naturally, family feeling was all tangled up in their political views, but the Romanov mythology encouraged this as well. From the time of Tsar Paul and Nicholas I the imperial family was a crucial plank of the way the autocracy presented itself. Their personal life was at was at the heart of national life.

But my point about the diaries is this: what she wrote in them is mainly telling him how cute he looks in his uniform, and how she wants to be there when he's in the bath and all (pretty racy stuff for an unmarried "Victorian"). The comment about the doctors coming to him alone is an isolated one, and understandable when you see how people regarded Nicholas. In everyone from ministers down there were serious doubts about his ability to run things (they left plenty of remarks testifying to this), and this showed in their treatment of him. It is hardly surprising that both on a human and a political level Alexandra was offended.

I also don't really agree with your views of Queen Victoria, whose personal relationships with everyone from Prime Ministers to servants and secretaries caused a lot of scandals in her reign. I don't see her as a superb judge of character, nor as the dominant partner in the marriage with Albert by any means (for all they had early difficulties over her flexing her monarchical muscles she soon decided that she wanted him as leader in public as well as private).
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Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #703 on: April 03, 2011, 08:39:26 AM »
I should say, Alixz, that one doesn't have to have "respect" for - or agree with - a person's perspective to acknowledge it and understand why it occurred. If you don;t think that Alexandra "behaved like the autocrat's wife" I wonder how an autocrat's wife ought to be behave? Different Empresses had different conceptions of this, from the first Marie Feodorovna, very concerned with ettiquette, dress and proper behaviour - in other words, she was very much the traditional head of domestic court and family - through the crushed and mousy Alexandra Feodorovna (now THERE'S a marriage that is romanticised completely; I don't doubt that they loved each other, but the way she subsumed herself and ruined her health through endless pregnancies doesn't look healthy to the modern eye) to Marie Alexandrovna, who DID play a political role and very much so. Marie Feodorvna II was more in the mode of the first one while her husband was alive, except in her endless opining on Germany - though that simply confirmed the direction Russia was probably heading anyway. It is only later that she began to be more active in politics.
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Alixz

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Re: Alexandra - Slandered and Hated
« Reply #704 on: April 03, 2011, 09:33:21 AM »
When Alexandra left Alexei and three of the Grand Duchesses to go with Nicholas to "where ever", she did indeed think that Nicholas would be asked to sign the Treaty of Brest Litovsk.  In my opinion and in the opinion of many of her biographers, she went with Nicholas because she thought he was too weak to resist and would be forced to do something that she didn't want him to do.

As violetta (and I hope I have the right quote here as all of those purple boxes over top of each are confuse me) said,  She suspected that the new authorities would force her husband to sign this treaty so she went with him. she even said that that her husband was forced to sign a document i.e. abdication, once but this time she wouldn't let him do the same.

She wouldn't let him do the same.  My point exactly - she was still treating him like a recalcitrant school boy who needed a chaperon.

I so agree that both Nicholas & Alexandra were clueless.

Perhaps she didn't think far enough ahead to realize that the end was coming or she just didn't realize that the Bolsheviks would go so far as to kill even her children, but at that point (when Nicholas was being separated from his family) she still thought that she was powerful enough to keep him from doing anything she thought to be inappropriate. And/or this is also a thought, that she was powerful enough to prevent the Bolsheviks from forcing Nicholas to do what they wanted.