"English" branch?

[Prince_Lieven]

I know plenty of Scots, Irish and  Welsh and none of them were taught  their native languages.

Any Irish person born after the 1940s or 50s would certainly have been taught Irish all through school, primary and secondary - it's obligatory. Most people fall out of practice after school though. There are still parts of the country where Irish is still spoken as the first language. In general - well, in my experience at least - people from Dublin tend to be worst at Irish, and the least interested in it.

[Margot]

It seems rather ironic to me that this conversation is even here as there appears to be no such thing as an acceptable  'English person' these days!You may be British or Scots, Irish or Welsh, but you are not permitted to be de facto English! One can fill in all manner of government forms with ethnicity boxes including 'Asian' 'Black' 'Afro Caribbean', 'White' 'European Asian' etc and on some forms, one can even tick boxes 'British' as well as 'Scots', 'Irish' and 'Welsh' but there is not and has never been an 'English' option!

I for one am English and jolly well proud to say as such, admittedly my heritage is only a millenia old but I am descended from one consistent male line that settled in England in the 12th century! My people have been in England since then and therefore I think assimilation and time have provided the right and natural course to assume that we are now English!

I loathe filling in forms where I have no option other than the 'British' one when I am fully aware that today the majority of Scots, Irish and Welsh generally disparage and despise the concept of Britain and only use it as a means to their own ends! In England we watch MPs voting on policy that effects the English and on occasion we see MSPs (Scottish Members elected to sit in Westminster) voting on policies that effect English but which do not apply to the Scots! English MPs have no votes on such legislation in Scotland on certain issue as this! Tuition fees was one prime example of just how hypocritical the Scots were when they applied certain regulation to English born students but not to their own! Such aspects of devolution will eventually lead to the English being driven to revolt.....the sooner the better IMHO!

It is a travesty and also an incendiary element in the increasingly frustrating and embarrassing marginalization of 'England' as an entity and reality! It makes me so angry when I see Scots, Welsh and Ulstermen and women harking on about equality when as an Englishwoman I am not even permitted to call myself as such!

 Then again aren't the so called but officially non existent  'English' supposed to be paying for decades or rather centuries of colonization and undemocratic occupation and misrule in the present environment? In the present climate where popular devolution, democratic self rule and nation nurturing is socio-political gold farming material, by merely not being an extant national entity but rather part of the family of wonderfully useful 'PC' Collectivism that is the so called 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland' England is now silenced and neutered by the crowing of the others who feel hard done by by the dominant state within!

Consequently, it is all meaningless words that reflect nothing today that is pertinent to the continued social and genuine unity of Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland as a nation state!

[Robert_Hall]

 I know what you mean,  Margot.  My best friend is from Yorkshire and he  very adamant that he is "English"  Another is from Essex [one cannot get more "English" than that] Most the rest of my friends are from the home counties and I have heard almost verbatim  what you have just written. They do not being  British,  but think it unfair, as you do, that there is not  box for them to check.  I do not wish- at all- that the UK be dissolved. That would be tragic.  But all this separatism is indeed  disturbing..  I think this is a census year for the UK ? [it is here] I was living in  London and  helped my host fill out my part.  I  did notice that there was everything  but English on the form. I suppose one could  say "other" and then put in English. [y host was  Irish,  but holds a UK passport]
 But, back to the RF,  I think most hold diplomatic passports. Except  William & Harry who probably hold military passports. They all say  UK, do they not ?

[Kalafrana]

Robert

I agree with what you say. Nowadays over here, everybody is supposed to be proud of their origins except the English! Having once been married to a Scot from Aberdeen, I can say unambiguously that an awful lot of Scottish nationalism is simply anti-Englishness.

But we don't have military passports - there  are ordinary ones and diplomatic ones.

Ann

[Robert_Hall]

 Thank you, Ann. I did not know that- you do not have military passports.  I  just presumed  you did as we do or at least did. Perhaps we do not  either, now.
 I honestly no longer know anyone who has served in the armed forces any longer.
 I also see your point of "anti English"  Odd, though, as my Scottish friends who  are so adamant about independence- live in England! Same with the Welsh & Irish. They all live in England.
 The RF may be German in origin,  but they are definitely British by now, I  think.

[Kalafrana]

As to passports, my father was in the RAF for 31 years, and had an entirely ordinary passport, in which his occupation was discreetly described as 'government service'.

That enthusiastic face of Scottish nationalism, Sean Connery, lives in Spain!

Ann

[Margot]

Remember too when there was a suggestion about rearranging the public holidays in England and some lovely 'trouble-making' spark suggested that as the Irish had St Patrick's day it might be nice for the English to have St George's Day! I think for a while the halls of Whitehall buzzed with nervous whispers about a possible resurgence in Welsh Nationalist plots if St George's Day was selected as an alternative! It was at the time that another option of Trafalgar day in October was also mooted and in Paris the French went into a Gallic frenzy of grumbling ire at such un-European and anti-frog sounding commemorative sound bites from Les Rozbif across La Manche! They even grumbled about the use of Waterloo in the name of a train station which is ironic when one steps off a train at Gare d'Austerlitz in Paris!!!!!!

The Scots have St Andrew's Day as a public holiday and the Welsh voted to have St David's Day as public holiday but that killjoy Scot Tony Blair's office vetoed the plan when he was still Prime Minister! I suppose the idea of a St George's Day as a public holiday may have been shelved at about the same time as being too incendiary and non PC!

Being English feels thoroughly non PC today! Being anything else is fine! One can even be Cornish!

Sir Sean also spends lots of time at his house in the Bahamas too!

Personally I think the English should just wake up and get with it and drop all this pussy footing PC malarkey!

I would suggest Flooden Day 9th September or the nearest Monday afterward as a Public holiday! After all it was the Scots who marched into England and the English had to hurry north and trounce the nasty, mean, treacherous and nefarious invading Scots who were in cahoots with the French, in Northumberland! It was the largest battle ever fought between the English and the Scots and is IMHO worth remembering!
  

[Robert_Hall]

Great, Ann, you should proud of your father!  My partner was in the USAF for 8 years. Although I was an anti-war activist, I still respect his time in the service. We still have his military passport. [long expired ,BTW]
 I thought Sean Connery lived outside the UK but he is quite outspoken about Scotland's indepenndernce.

[Margot]

Sir Sean does 'live' outside the UK for tax purposes unlike that marvelous 'English' knight Sir Michael Caine who is a fully paid up British Tax payer and resident!

[Robert_Hall]

 Whenever any of my English friends  visit me  here,, which  is often, I fly the Union Jack, St George and what ever county/shire they are from. They always feel flattered. I remember   when the last WC took place, the PC brigade  was demanding  people take down the St George ,bunting, etc. And many councils agreed ! Is it  illegal to be English, I sometimes wonder ?  By the same token,  my best friend  commented  at the last Jubilee That we would not see  so many flags unttil the next one!

[Kalafrana]

Robert

I like it! I was immensely touched a few years ago when I visited Canada and my hosts flew a union jack all the time I was there.

Ann

[Robert_Hall]

England means a lot to me.   After all, I spend  a lot l of of time there [back 5 April for another 8 weeks]. I do notice a great deal of apathy for the monarchy-  but not the Queen.  I have seen great loyally to her.  When the time comes, I wonder how  Charles will fare?
 BTW, I have been polling my friends and overwhelmingly, they would prefer to  considered English. Except for the Scots, of course. My Irish pals are from the republic  so did not  poll them.
 Also, I fly the flags of anyybody's"s country when they are here, Australians'  Kiwis,  French, etc. I have a Slovak  coming  in next-  need to find his flag. come to think of it. As I will be in Bratislava next month or so,  I will get it there.  My Canadian flag is the old one, not the Map;e Leaf.  And it is HUGE- 6xx10 feet feet, I think. Needs to be cleaned, which will  cost a bucket I imagine. However, my Canadian friends love it. Shows their English heritage.

[Naslednik Norvezhskiy]

I think something Margot wrote on the Dukedoms thread deserves to be quoted here, in praise of first and foremost England, but also Wales and Scotland (not Ireland, too much "Continental instability" there) - thus Britain, "this precious stone set in the silver sea, this scepter'd isle, this England" (hey, there's another one who equates England with Britain!):

When you come stumbling upon this topic..... think and seek the theme from 'Brideshead Revisited'.......please  note........... NOT the film but the breathtakingly apt theme written by Geoffrey Burgon for the 1981 TV production!!! It was and remains sublime as all good music does!!! It will hopefully give many an idea of the England...ooops... I mean....Britain..... of my grand parents' time,  and those of manifold other members too! Historically no other country comes close to my "England, Wales,Scotland & Ulster"  in the hearts of so 'many' around this world we live in! It is this evocation which every poxy royal house and aristocratic dynasty of  Europe covets, rolled into one they have all hoped to be thus and maintain such a status quo, yet the (Brits- there's no such thing anymore if you ask me.... actually, was there ever such a thing a as a Britain?)/English/Scots/Welsh and some Irish have managed to maintain and 'realize' this idyll long after all the others have become dust!!!!!  Oooh.... does this sound a tad jingoistic..perhaps this is what some 'English' subjects feel when they hanker for a 'smidgeon' of pride in their past!

I think what Margot writes about the stable "idyll" which endures while others have crumbled, "this evocation which every poxy royal house and aristocratic dynasty of  Europe covets" is very true, especially here, where so much is centred around Empress Alexandra, with her very "English tastes" for everything but parliamentary government - and her throne which became dust.

[Kalafrana]

"this precious stone set in the silver sea, this scepter'd isle, this England"

Ah, but here Margot is quoting John of Gaunt's dying speech from Shakespeare's Richard II.

Ann

[Naslednik Norvezhskiy]

Ah, but here Margot is quoting John of Gaunt's dying speech from Shakespeare's Richard II.

Oh no, what Margot wrote is in the mauve (never thought how appropriate that is!) quote. I was quoting the Bard myself. I may be a compatriot of Ibsen, but I do know my Shakespeare. (I've even paid my respects in Stratford).