Author Topic: Alexandra and Rasputin  (Read 136974 times)

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Anastasia Spalko

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Re: Alexandra and Rasputin
« Reply #240 on: July 23, 2009, 12:49:54 AM »
Of course now, everyone's pushing the Bill of Rights too far.  Someday I'm going to run for president and see if i can fix that problem.  Seriously.  We take the Bill of Rights and turn it into something that says "Do whatever you feel like."   Still, that cartoon is sick.  I can't believe I looked.

Alixz

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Re: Alexandra and Rasputin
« Reply #241 on: July 23, 2009, 08:35:13 AM »
Anastasia Spalko - the Bill of Rights also gives you the protection that you need to be able to say that "the cartoon is sick".

I am not at all judging you or how you feel about that cartoon of Alexandra and Rasputin.  I am not saying this as a moderator but as a fellow poster.

Amendments
First Amendment – Establishment Clause, Free Exercise Clause; freedom of speech, of the press, Freedom of Religion, and of assembly; right to petition,
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
 
Second Amendment – Militia (United States), Sovereign state, Right to keep and bear arms.
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
 
Third Amendment – Protection from quartering of troops.
No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

Fourth Amendment – Protection from unreasonable search and seizure.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
 
Fifth Amendment – due process, double jeopardy, self-incrimination, eminent domain.
No person shall be held to answer for any capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
 
Sixth Amendment – Trial by jury and rights of the accused; Confrontation Clause, speedy trial, public trial, right to counsel
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.

Seventh Amendment – Civil trial by jury.
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.
 
Eighth Amendment – Prohibition of excessive bail and cruel and unusual punishment.
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
 
Ninth Amendment – Protection of rights not specifically enumerated in the Bill of Rights.
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
 
Tenth Amendment – Powers of States and people.
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.


Anastasia Spalko

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Re: Alexandra and Rasputin
« Reply #242 on: July 23, 2009, 09:37:29 PM »
I know.  That's what i don't get.  Some people say that it's their right to do something but they scream at people who complain about it for complaining about it, even though it's their right to complain.  It's kind of hippocriitical.  Who drew these Rasputin/IF cartoons anyways?  Does anyone know?  That would be interesting, but I can't seem to find anything about them on the web.

Alixz

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Re: Alexandra and Rasputin
« Reply #243 on: July 24, 2009, 09:53:18 AM »
I have never thought to research who drew those cartoons.  What a good idea.

I would imagine that, at the time, the group of anti royals who drew them and published them might have been known to the police or even to a greater public.  But so many years later a lot of research would have to be done in the source material.  I doubt that even our incomparable Internet would have that information.

Even today, there a political cartoons published in most ever newspaper in the world.  However in Russia at that time, the authors would not want to be known.  They would most likely have been shot or at least sent to Siberia.

Anastasia Spalko

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Re: Alexandra and Rasputin
« Reply #244 on: July 24, 2009, 08:58:14 PM »
Since Goggle isn't exactly a good search engine and most others aren't much better, we'll all have a hard time figuring out that info.  It's worth a try, though.

Offline nena

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Re: Alexandra and Rasputin
« Reply #245 on: July 25, 2009, 03:50:16 AM »
It seems unlikely to know who exactly did drawings, but I assume journalist had to do something with those drawings. Remember they were the most powerful media in Russia by early XX century decades.  And during 1910 - 1917, most of the newspapers were referred to Rasputin, including his interviews and so on. Of course, artist were anonymous, in most number of cases at least.
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Offline Sara Araújo

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Re: Alexandra and Rasputin
« Reply #246 on: November 19, 2011, 10:39:34 AM »
I've just read a book called "Sex With the Queen - 900 years of Vile Kings, Virile Lovers and Passionate Politics" by Eleanora Herman which featured a section about Rasputin and Alexandra's relationship that I thought would be interesting to share and comment because it gives a completely different perspective about it from everything that I've read so far:

Aping Queen Victoria’s devotion to John Brown, Empress Alexandra of Russia, wife of Czar Nicholas II, was equally devoted to a blunt-spoken peasant. But unlike her wise grandmother, the foolish Alexandra made a choice that was politically explosive. Alexandra fell in love with a sexual satyr, a con man, and a lunatic, the man who lit the spark of the Russian Revolution. His name was Gregory Rasputin.
Alexandra, a German princess, had come to Russia as a bride in 1893. Haughty, stubborn, and loudmouthed, she won the immediate dislike of many who met her. Upon hearing the news of her betrothal to the future czar, an official from her native land of Hesse whispered to a Russian diplomat, “How lucky we are that you are taking her from us.”15

Tall and slender with rich chestnut hair and large blue-gray eyes, she completely overwhelmed her indecisive husband who signed himself “Your poor, weak-willed little hubby.”16 Nicholas’s handsome features were marred by his insipid expression. His cousin Kaiser Wilhelm of Germany thought he should have been “a country gentleman growing turnips.” When his tutor tried to teach him about governing a nation, Nicholas “became actively absorbed in picking his nose.”17

Believing herself to be a political genius, Alexandra pushed her weak husband out of the way and ruled one-seventh of the surface of the globe herself. Nicholas’s old tutor remarked that Alexandra was “more autocratic than Peter the Great and perhaps as cruel as Ivan the Terrible. Hers is a small mind that believes it harbors great intelligence.”18 One court official described her as having “a will of iron linked to not much brain and no knowledge.”19 She knew she was detested at all levels of society, but thought the root cause was jealousy of her intellectual brilliance and steely resolve not to change her mind merely because the Russian people objected.

Increasingly isolated as the years passed, gullible Alexandra fell prey to various charlatans and psychics. As the mother of four daughters who were not allowed to rule the Russian Empire by virtue of their gender, her main objective was to have a son. But Czarevich Alexis, born in 1904, suffered from hemophilia, a disease which always resulted in death at a very early age. Desperate for a cure, the empress agreed to meet a Siberian holy man who had come to St. Petersburg.
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Offline Sara Araújo

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Re: Alexandra and Rasputin
« Reply #247 on: November 19, 2011, 10:44:40 AM »
But while Rasputin was on the rise in St. Petersburg, Russia’s fortunes were declining. In 1904 Japan declared war on Russia, but Russian armed forces did as much damage to themselves as the enemy did. Russian boats fired and sank each other by mistake. Russian minesweepers were sunk by their own mines. Trade unions struck. Hundreds of peasants protesting peacefully for better conditions were gunned down on the czar’s orders. “If such a government cannot be overthrown otherwise than by dynamite,” wrote Mark Twain, “then thank God for dy-namite.”25 Fearing for their lives, the imperial family did not venture out into public.

Two countesses, friends of the empress, knowing her interest in quacks and charlatans, brought Rasputin to the imperial palace. The empress was awestruck by the holy man. Rasputin calmed the empress’s heart palpitations and, oddly, had a healing effect on the dangerous bleeding of the czarevich. Whenever the little boy fell or knocked himself against something, internal bleeding swelled him to enormous proportions; he lay moaning in agony as palace doctors trembled for his life. But when Rasputin visited him, the pain and swelling subsided.

One witness reported, “Coincidence might have answered if it happened, say, once or twice, but I could not even count how many times it happened!”26 Rasputin probably hypnotized the boy, calming him so he could recover naturally. But the empress declared he had miraculous powers direct from God almighty.

Soon Rasputin convinced the empress, who convinced the czar, to appoint his friends to top positions in the church and government. But the political meddling of Rasputin, who possessed the tact of a cannonball and the diplomacy of a sledgehammer, was disastrous. Officials who protested the favorite’s influence were soon ousted and replaced by his friends.

When it became known that the empress was meeting Rasputin at her maid’s cottage on the palace grounds, many speculated that they were having an affair. Rumors also flew that perhaps Rasputin was enjoying the favors of Alexandra’s four teenage daughters. Some people, certain he was in league with the devil, reported that the Russian flag flying over the imperial palace had been transformed into Rasputin’s underpants.

Yet General Alexander Spiridovich, the head of the czar’s secret service who got to know Rasputin very well, said the monk behaved with “extreme decency and chastity” with the imperial family.27

One day Rasputin’s friend Aron Simanovich cried, “It’s intolerable that rumors are spread about the grand duchesses because of you. You ought to realize that everyone pities the poor girls and that even the czarina is being drawn into the dirt.”

“Go to hell,” Rasputin replied. “I’ve done nothing. People should realize that nobody fouls the place where he eats. I’m at the czar’s service, and I’d never dare do anything of that sort. What do you think the czar would do to me if I had?”28

In 1912 letters written by Alexandra to Rasputin were stolen from his apartment and published in the newspapers. In a letter which could be interpreted as expressing sexual desire, Alexandra wrote, “My beloved and unforgettable teacher, redeemer and mentor, how weary I feel without you. It is only then that my soul is quiet and I relax, when you, teacher, are sitting beside me and I kiss your hands and lean my head on your blessed shoulder. Oh! How light I feel then. I wish only one and the same thing then. To fall asleep forever on your shoulder, in your arms.... Come quickly. I am waiting for you and I am tormenting myself for you. I am asking for your holy blessing and I am kissing your blessed hands. Loving you forever, M [stood for Mama].”29

Many felt that the appearance of the white-eyed holy man marked the end of their world. The czar’s mother, who detested Alexandra, said, “My unhappy daughter-in-law does not understand that she is destroying the dynasty and herself. She truly believes in the saintliness of this rogue and we are powerless to stave off this disaster.”30 A Russian lady wrote of Rasputin’s increasing power, “It became a dusk enveloping all our world, eclipsing the sun. How could so pitiful a wretch throw so vast a shadow.”31 Alarmed by Rasputin’s closeness to the imperial family, the secret police followed him. The czar waved away their reports of drunken brawls and orgies. Lies and slander, he said. The empress sniffed, “How true it is that a prophet is always without honor in his own country.”32


The book is available online at: http://library.nu/docs/IWUP37EMH1/Sex%20with%20the%20Queen%3A%20900%20Years%20of%20Vile%20Kings%2C%20Virile%20Lovers%2C%20and%20Passionate%20Politics
Natalie Paley website:

http://nataliepaley.webs.com/

Offline Forum Admin

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Re: Alexandra and Rasputin
« Reply #248 on: November 19, 2011, 10:59:36 AM »
Well, there are a LOT of errors in what you posted, so I wouldn't take a lot of this as accurate.
The quote about Nicholas "picking his nose" was from when he was a little CHILD....
Nobody who actually MET Alexandra would have ever described her as "haughty" or "Loudmouthed"...LOL...
 Rasputin was not introduced at Court by "Countesses", rather "Grand Duchesses", Alexandra did not visit with Rasputin at "her maid's cottage on the Palace grounds", she met with Rasputin at Anna Vyroubova's house in Tsarskoie Selo. Vyroubova was a "Lady in Waiting to the Empress" not a "maid".
Aron Simanovitch was not Rasputin's "friend" he was Rasputin's secretary, and Simanovitch's book is essentially fiction.
Spiridovitch's quote is accurate, but taken totally out of context here. He did not "get to know Rasputin very well" rather he and his men investigated Rasputin thoroughly and certainly did not like him...
The letters published in 1912 were fakes...

I could go on, but this is simply a mess and not "history"...

Alixz

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Re: Alexandra and Rasputin
« Reply #249 on: November 22, 2011, 10:19:06 AM »
As I was reading the quoted material, I knew just what FA would take exception to.  There are a lot of mistakes in this but I believe that some of them could be from translation errors.  That does not excuse the general falseness of the information (example calling Anna Vyrubova a "maid" instead of "Lady in Waiting"), but it does explain some of it.

It does seem to be a regurgitation of the information that circulated about Alexandra and Rasputin for years before any books with actual good source material were printed.

Alexandra invokes either hated or compassion immediately from those who study her.  I believe that she invoked the same feelings from those who knew her.

historyfan

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Re: Alexandra and Rasputin
« Reply #250 on: November 22, 2011, 11:05:23 AM »
But why the *hatred*? I could see dislike. OK, so maybe one meets Alexandra Feodorovna and thinks, "Well, at least I don't have to go through that again!" But even before Rasputin, even before the war, even before the Russo-Japanese war, there were people who had it in for her.

Offline TimM

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Re: Alexandra and Rasputin
« Reply #251 on: November 22, 2011, 05:15:09 PM »
The poor woman could not catch a break.

Part of the problem was that, for her, things have moved so fast.  The Dowager Empress lived in Russia for nearly twenty years before Alexander III accended the throne, so she had much more time adjust to doing things the Russian way.  For Alexandra, it was basically bing, bang, boom, she was Empress.  She really never had time to adjust before she found herself Empress.
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Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: Alexandra and Rasputin
« Reply #252 on: November 22, 2011, 10:12:27 PM »
Exactly, Tim. She arrived to the throne right away her father-in-law's death and it was not easy for her. It's sad, but even after so many years, Alix still is misunderstood by people...And even if there are a lot of essais and all sort of books studying the Empress background and behavior, the common knowledge about her life still is baed in the quotation of all the gossip and repeated legends that were spread about her by her ennemies... :(

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Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Alexandra and Rasputin
« Reply #253 on: November 23, 2011, 04:28:24 AM »
To be fair, Alexandra did nothing to help herself. She was highly critical of the Russian aristocracy and did not do the things they expected of an Empress. Marie Feodorovna was a success as Empress because she did what was expected of her (fortunately, she loved parties!)

Now Alexandra was painfully shy and hated balls, but if she had been less convinced of her own righteousness, she could have found a compromise solution. Alexander III was a home body and also hated balls, but he went, did the minimum of dancing necessary, bumbled about chatting for a time, then said his goodbyes. Alexandra could have done that. Apparently, at these big functions it was the done thing to have card tables in a separate room for people who weren't going to dance all night. Alexandra could have done her duty dances, then found a few people to play bezique with. If she didn't like big dinners, she could have held small ones for interesting people (not all the aristocracy passed their lives in a blur of affairs and gambling debts!)

Ann

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Re: Alexandra and Rasputin
« Reply #254 on: November 23, 2011, 08:40:46 AM »
But to *hate* her enough to want to ruin her? Because she was shy, and didn't like dancing? That's what I'm stuck on. We could go round and round forever about what she should have done instead of what she did, but why was there *such* a strong emotion attached to it? I'm trying to think of a modern-day example to compare but I can't. Celebrities, world leaders, their wives, etc, are often criticised about their style, their dress, an off-colour comment, but are they *hated*?