Author Topic: Nicholas II and Anti-Semitism.  (Read 135960 times)

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Offline Michael HR

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Re: Nicholas II and Anti-Semitism.
« Reply #195 on: June 18, 2008, 08:58:37 AM »
Sorry didn't realise

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Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Nicholas II and Anti-Semitism.
« Reply #196 on: June 18, 2008, 03:53:01 PM »
At least George V was not anti-semitic, unlike his cousins.

An oversimplification if there ever was one! Trying to prove someone is not prejudiced is very difficult. The impression I have from my own grandparents is that anti-Semitism was rife in Europe during this period. And, that includes Great Britain. I know of no evidence which indicates that George and Nicholas were terribly different from one another when it came to prejudice.

Offline Cantor Tany

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Re: Nicholas II and Anti-Semitism.
« Reply #197 on: June 18, 2008, 05:10:46 PM »
WOW I cannot believe what I have started here.  I am so glad that the forum moderators including Lisa have cleared this all up.  Thank you guys for your great input. 

Offline Proud_Olga

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Re: Nicholas II and Anti-Semitism.
« Reply #198 on: June 26, 2008, 05:46:46 PM »
I was always wondering if Nicholas was anti-semitic or if he didn't know about the pogroms.
Because most of people who don't like this Tsar refers to his anti-semitic behavior. Being anti-semitic was habitual in the beginnig of 20th century. Maybe he had prejudices againt them.
I remember that someone told me that the Orthodoxy Church was really anti-semitic, and I think few Romanov members were too.
So, if I well understood, actually, Nicholas never gave ordors for the pogroms , didn't he ?
« Last Edit: June 26, 2008, 05:49:59 PM by Proud_Olga »
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Offline Forum Admin

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Re: Nicholas II and Anti-Semitism.
« Reply #199 on: June 26, 2008, 05:59:44 PM »
No, there is no evidence anywhere that Nicholas gave the order for any pogrom.  To the contrary, there is much evidence that Nicholas did not like the pogroms and asked his ministers and government employees to stop pogroms.


Offline Nathalie

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Re: Nicholas II and Anti-Semitism.
« Reply #200 on: July 01, 2008, 03:15:55 AM »
My gosh, you are trying to clean up the Tzar just like old bolsheviks do with Stalin: he didn't know about it, even if he knew, he didn't approve, but the chinovniks ordered, he was nice guy, etc..

Hey: he was the Tzar.
He had to know about it. The whole Europe knew about it.
Yet he did nothing.
Face with the facts...
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Offline Forum Admin

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Re: Nicholas II and Anti-Semitism.
« Reply #201 on: July 01, 2008, 08:56:46 AM »
Nathalie,

You are a newbie here, so I will explain to you that we HAVE presented the facts.  The FACT is that the file records clearly show that Nicholas II never ordered a single pogrom.  The FACT is that Nicholas II did not even KNOW about a single pogrom BEFORE it happened.  The FACT is that the file and documentary records show Nicholas II ordered an immediate stop to pogroms and gave medals and awards to those who stopped or prevented Pogroms ( I direct you specifically to just two examples: the murder of Stolypin, Spiridovitch "Les Dernieres Annees..." Vol 2. Ch. 4:
"P.A. Stolypin died on September 5th at 5 o'clock in the evening.
   Once the news of his death was known, the popular  centers were beginning to display a blame toward the Jews.  A pogrom was going to erupt.  Although he was orthodox, Bogrov was Jewish in origin, and that was enough to give rise to a hatred toward the Jews.  "The Jews have killed Stolypin. Kill the Jews" was heard throughout the city.  Governor Guirs and Kuliabko did everything possible to prevent a pogrom.  They both held great influence among the right wing organizations, although these same organizations say the Governor General as a partisan of Jews and had little confidence in him.
   The police patrols circulating in the streets hardly frightened the crowds.  They could only calm them and prevent vengence against the Jews for the assassination of the minister by telling them that the Emperor wished that there not be a pogrom, and that he would be greatly upset if one happened.  I witnessed this myself, as I had not left for Tchernigov, and so I was asked by Kurlov to help Kuliabkov to assist in calming the crowds and to persuade them from starting a pogrom.
   Count Kokovtzev told me much later that the Tsar had thanked him most warmly in Kiev for having succeeded, as he had replaced the murdered Stolypin, in preventing a pogrom, and had even embraced him, a sign of personal recognition."
). (emphasis added)
and 2:
Re: Kishniev Pogrom of 1903:
Plevhe was involved in the Kishnev pogrom of 1903.  April 6, 1903, the first day of Orthodox Easter, rumors spread in Kishnev that a ritual killing took place in nearby town of Dubossary by Jews during passover, and that in Kishnev itself a jewish doctor had tried to get blood for a passover ritual from a young servant girl.  The pogrom broke out just before noon that day.

Fontanka 16, pg. 233:
"By mid afternoon the governor R.S. von Raaben, issued orders to the police and military and by evening they had largely suppressed the pogrom.
     Groups opposed to the government laid the blame for the Kishnev pogrom on the authorities and in particular on the minister of the interior.

pg 234 "...Documents show that Plevhe, having received news of the pogrom from the local authorities, undertook all measures possible under the law to restore order.  He also reported to the Tsar about his supplementary measures: "Despite the summoning of the military and the arrest of more than 60 rioters, disorders continued.  The governor requested authority to impose measures of strengthened security.  I approved the request by telegram." [document in GARF 601/1/1046 sheet 2]
    Following the pacification of the outbreak, Plehve secured the Tsar's agreement to dismiss von Raaben because of his poor handling of the disturbances.  He sent his director of police, A.A. Lopukhin to Kishnev to investigate the conduct of the local authorities at the time of the pogroms.  Lopukhin did not discover any trances of premeditated preparation of the pogrom, but he concluded that the events could not have taken place without the participation of the lower police ranks.  The Gendarme officers seemed duplicitous. ... the minister [Plehve] frankly condemned the police in a report to Nicholas II."



NOW, if you have specific and credible first hand evidence to support your allegation that Nicholas knew about or ordered even one single pogrom or did nothing to stop them, please bring it here for discussion.

Your unsupported allegations and unsubstantiated personal opinions are not permitted nor will go unchallenged.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2008, 01:49:17 PM by Forum Admin »

Offline Halinka

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Re: Nicholas II and Anti-Semitism.
« Reply #202 on: July 17, 2008, 12:46:47 PM »
My gosh, you are trying to clean up the Tzar just like old bolsheviks do with Stalin: he didn't know about it, even if he knew, he didn't approve, but the chinovniks ordered, he was nice guy, etc..

Hey: he was the Tzar.
He had to know about it. The whole Europe knew about it.
Yet he did nothing.
Face with the facts...

Actaully alot help in country's that royals or political leaders didn't know about. For example Nicholas didn't know about bloody sunday to after the event.

Offline Inok Nikolai

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Re: Nicholas II and Anti-Semitism.
« Reply #203 on: February 27, 2014, 03:14:09 PM »
Paul Kulikovsky, in his Romanov News No. 70, reproduced this interesting article:

Scholar explodes ‘canonic’ American Jewish belief: Russian Czar was behind 1903 massacre
http://mondoweiss.net/2014/02/explodes-american-massacre.html
инок Николай

Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Nicholas II and Anti-Semitism.
« Reply #204 on: March 25, 2014, 05:57:36 PM »
I have some comments,additions and answers to some of the above posts. Nicholas was somewhat anti-semtic. It would have been really odd back then if he wasn't most Russians of his era where and many where both before and after his lifetime. He sure wasn't Adolf Hitler. I should also point out racism, bigotry and anti-Semitism were common back then worldwide. There was quite a bit of anti-Semitism in western Europe note the Dreyfus affair in France.  In the US during this period a Jew was lynched and more than a few Blacks and Mexicans were either lynched or murdered. Today you can find plenty of anti-Semitism and Isreal actions and talk at the UN and elsewhere in the world.

The book "Prologe to the Revolution" Ed Michael Cherniavsky while the Council of Ministers does condemn the mistreatment of jews ect by the Russian army. They go on to talk about how the Jews control the world banking system. Note some of these people are reguarded as "Liberals".

Nationalizing the Russian Empire" by Eric Lohr which deals with the Pogroms, depotations, hostage taking property seizures of jews and others. It was done by the senior leadership of the Russian army most of whom were anti-Semitic. This includes grand Duke Nicholas N. It has Nicholas, The Council of Ministers, the Duma and civilian officials trying to restrain them.

"The Russian Revolution" Richard Pipes points out the Russian government did not encourage Pogroms it repressed them because they hated disorder more than they hated Jews since it could Victimize the landlords and officials property.

The Tolstoys" Serge Tolstoy says the same thing.

"Autocracy under Siege" John Daly on Kishinev The Govenor Von Raben war fired for failing to stop the Pogrom. Pleve also adivised the War Minister not to give him a commission. Pleve was also furious with the local security officials and sent an order to all govenors the Tsar would hold them responsible for preventing and halting violence against anyone.
(to be continued)

Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Nicholas II and Anti-Semitism.
« Reply #205 on: March 25, 2014, 07:14:01 PM »
"The Fall of the Romanovs" has Nilus book being sent to Alexandra by a friend (you might say with friends like these...)She calls it the "Protecols of the Freemasons". Does anyone know what was in this book besides the protocals of the elders of zion? If the book has anything on freemasons on it could be why Nicholas and Alexandra are reading it. The book the Febrary revolution T Hasegawa points out that there was a strong Masonic Movement that appeared in Russia after the 1905 Revolution. It included a number of leading Russian politicians including Kerensky, Prince Lvov, and even Grand Duke Nicolas M. We will probably never know what actually occurred at these evening gathering because everybody there ends up getting shot by the Bolos. This book also mentions other members of there entourage were at these gatherings including Schindler, Hendrova, Dollirokov and tatisuhev. Also if someone was reading aloud they where sometimes interrupted by someone else in the room.
The book also mentions, Nicholas saying he was in favor of religious freedom. Nicholas writing Xenia telling her all or most of the Bolo leaders were Jews, Bittner saying Nicholas blaming Jews for all Russia's problems. It also has Nicholas not being able to understand why Russia fell apart after he abdicated and why the Bolos got into power.

"Prelude to the Revolution The Murder of Rasputin" Ron Moe on the Belyiss case the security police view was they had to have a trial to prevent a Pogrom and knew he was going to be found not guilty. (I should point out that democratic goverments are not above putting on "Show trials" to calm the public ect.)
 It has Nicolas after finding out that protocals was a fabrication reportedly writing "one cannot defend a pure cause with dirty methods."
It has Dmitri Rubinstein a Jewish banker pal of Rasputin's was Alexandra's fiscal advisor, managed Grand Duke Kyrils estate worth 12 Million rubles, and advised other grand dukes on fiscal matters. Nicholas gave him the government of actual state counsilor equel to the army rank of major general.
(to be continued)

Offline Helen

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Re: Nicholas II and Anti-Semitism.
« Reply #206 on: March 26, 2014, 08:27:22 AM »
"The Fall of the Romanovs" has Nilus book being sent to Alexandra by a friend (you might say with friends like these...)
Wasn't it GD Elizaveta Feodorovna who gave it to Nicholas and Alexandra?
"The Correspondence of the Empress Alexandra of Russia with Ernst Ludwig and Eleonore, Grand Duke and Duchess of Hesse. 1878-1916"  -  http://www.bod.de/index.php?id=296&objk_
"Grand Duke Ernst Ludwig and Princess Alix of Hesse and by Rhine in Italy - 1893"

Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Nicholas II and Anti-Semitism.
« Reply #207 on: March 26, 2014, 05:21:46 PM »
I think Moe in his book mentions she did. it was part of a struggle for influence with Nicholas with her and Serge on one side and Grand Duke NN and his wife on the other side. One does not know weather Ella did this on her own or was doing this because Serge wanted it done.

Rasputin was friendly to Jews and often spoke out in their defense there is a book "Rasputin and the Jews". I wonder was he so hated because he was so immoral and had influence with the IF or was this because he was friendly towards Jews.
Being friendly towards jews may have been one reason or possibly the main reason why he was murdered.

I must also point out communication in the Empire was poor. Sometimes officials didn't tell Nicholas what was really going on. The best example of this is the Febrary/march 1917 revolution Nicholas was not told that Petrograd was in full revolt until it was too late.

In his letter to his Mother in a earlier reply here he says 9/10ths of the troublemakers are Jews. It could be because some lower level officials who were anti-semtic told him this. Note the book "Thou Shalt Kill" mentions about 30% of all terrorists were Jews.

What can I say Nicholas was a rather complex, sometimes confusing and confused (he couldn't understand at first why his people were in revolt against him in 1905) and contradictory man.

One must also point out that Stalin, Khruschev, Bezhenev, and Andropov were all anti-semetic

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Nicholas II and Anti-Semitism.
« Reply #208 on: March 27, 2014, 03:19:21 AM »
We should also bear in mind that it is perfectly possible to read a book without agreeing with its contents. Plenty of people of moderate political views have read Mein Kampf in order to find out what Hitler was actually thinking.

So it is possible that Ella sent Alexandra the Nilus book on the basis of, 'You'd better read this, but it will shock you.'

Ann

Offline Helen

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Re: Nicholas II and Anti-Semitism.
« Reply #209 on: March 30, 2014, 07:45:38 AM »
We should also bear in mind that it is perfectly possible to read a book without agreeing with its contents. ...
So it is possible that Ella sent Alexandra the Nilus book on the basis of, 'You'd better read this, but it will shock you.'

I agree that this is a possibility. However, I'm not sure that this was the case.

I’ve seen references to Grand Duchess Elisabeth and Nilus’ book in several sources, a.o. Warrant for Genocide  by Norman Cohn  [edition published by Serif, London, 2005; first published in 1967]. Trying to trace the origins of the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion', Cohn quoted from a sworn 1927 affidavit by Filip Petrovich Stepanov, formerly procurator of the ecclesiastical synod of Moscow, court chamberlain and privy councilor, who claimed that he and Arkady Ippolitovich Kelepovsky anonymously printed the Protocols in Russia around 1897; Kelepovsky was said to be head of the household of Grand Duke Sergei and Grand Duchess Elisabeth at the time [Cohn, pp. 108-109]. It seems not unlikely that Grand Duke Sergei and Grand Duchess Elisabeth knew about this anonymous publication and were familiar with the contents of the Protocols well before their publication in Znamya [‘Banner’] in the Autumn of 1903 and well before their inclusion in Nilus' The Great in the Small.

Cohn also wrote that the Dowager Empress Maria Feodorovna and Grand Duchess Elisabeth turned to Pyotr Ivanovich Rachkovsky, head of the Russian secret service in Paris, for help to get Mr. Philippe removed [Cohn , p. 92].
One plot involving Grand Duchess Elisabeth and Nilus that Cohn discusses is based on an account by Alexandre du Chayla, who knew Sergei Nilus in 1909. According to that account, an earlier book by Nilus that was basically the first edition of The Great in the Small  had “received favourable reviews in some religious and conservative newspapers in 1900 and so came to the attention of Grand Duchess Elisabeth”. According to du Chaya, Grand Duchess Elisabeth “regarded Nilus as a genuine mystic and unshakable orthodox” and set out to replace Archpriest Yanishev, whom she blamed for the state of affairs with regard to Mr. Philippe, by bringing Nilus to Tsarksoe Selo to have him trained and ordained priest, to have him married off to Yelena Alexandrovna Ozerova, one of the Empress’ ladies-in-waiting, and then to impose Nilus on the Tsar and Empress as their new confessor. [Cohn , p. 93] It sounds like a rather time-consuming and roundabout way to get someone sacked, and it didn't work, but apparently there are documents that prove that Yelena Alexandrovna Ozerova used her position as a lady-in-waiting to secure publication of the third edition of her then fiancé's book The Great in the Small  under the imprint of the Red Cross organization, whose President happened to be the Dowager Empress, and she did marry Nilus in 1906 [Cohn, pp. 94-95].

I must say that I cannot properly verify what Cohn wrote; more detailed footnotes on the above points would have been most welcome.
However, if there is truth in the above, Nilus and his spirituality and thinking seem to have been in GD Elisabeth’s good books.
"The Correspondence of the Empress Alexandra of Russia with Ernst Ludwig and Eleonore, Grand Duke and Duchess of Hesse. 1878-1916"  -  http://www.bod.de/index.php?id=296&objk_
"Grand Duke Ernst Ludwig and Princess Alix of Hesse and by Rhine in Italy - 1893"