Nicholas II and Anti-Semitism.

[tsarsrule]

the book says he was anti-semite like most monarchs in those times, but in England, there were middle class people who were jews, he didn`t expect to see jews

[rosieposie]

I'm guessing he saw a normal middle class people just as anyone else and he was shocked to see that these certian group of people were Jews and they were not what he suspected a Jewish person was.   

[Forum Admin]

This has been discussed to death already. Please go read the old thread on the subject, it is something like fifteen pages long.

[grandduchessella]

I've merged the 2 threads.

[Schvibzik]

I want to know why the Jews attract so much hatred

What is it?

There has to be something that they do …they say or ..whatever… that incites total barbarism and illogical pursuit for their blood the world over.

It can’t be the fact that they refuse to conform or assimilate…Indians don’t assimilate, Muslims don’t assimilate

Jews have to be the single most persecuted religious faction in the history of the world

Apart from the alleged “Christ killing”  what else is there?

Of course they could be the holders of puppet strings as conspiracy theory believers would state. However I can’t think of a single documented event that has occurred in which the Jews were solely responsible.

I have a Russian friend whom I adore, however he absolutely despises Jews, to the point where his face goes red and the veins on his forehead pop out, when he mentions Jews

I am sorry if I sound ignorant or if this is a little off topic, but I can’t think of a better medium to discuss this as this forum is full of balanced people (I hope)   

[Mexjames]

First let me thank the Forum Admins for allowing me to participate in this Forum.  English isn't my first language, so if at times I sound harsh or not polite, I beg you to forgive me, it will never be the intention.

Shvibzik, the issue of anti-Semitism goes back to the time of the Pharaoh of Egypt, of biblical fame.  That is the oldest record of anti-Semitism in history, where in this case a ruler, publishes and executes a decree with the specific objective of eliminating the Jews.  From then onward, this has not subsided.

Quite regrettably, the Empire wasn't an exception.  My great-grandparents lived through the pogrom in Odessa, and according to my grandparents, they never quite knew what was the reason for it.

Maybe this will answer your questions, and help your Russian friend as well: http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Why_Do_People_Hate_The_Jews.htm

[dmitri]

Anti-semitism is purely and simply a vile and irrational hatred of a people. It is also connected with the denial of the fact that Jesus Christ was a Jew as was the Virgin Mary and all the disciples. Religion has a lot to answer for doesn't it?

[Schvibzik]

Thankyou for the link Mexjames, i will enjoy reading through it : )

[anna11]

FA- I'm just wondering, if you don't like people starting new threads when there is already one, how come when replying to an old thread a message comes up saying 'This topic has not been replied to for at least 120 days, consider starting a new topic...etc?'

Not a troll question, i'm generally curious.

[Cody]

Well, I'm obviously coming to this thread late, but I thought I'd give in my points.  Anti-semitism in countries that are predominately Christian, carries a long and harsh history.  I can tell you that even during the Second World War in America, it wasn't until people saw the images of the death camps that they were shocked.  Hearing about Jews being massacred alone wasn't enough for them.
With that being said, Nicholas II was not as anti-semitic as his father, but he did seem to inherit some anti-semitic attitudes.  Attitudes that I think emerged after the assassination of his grandfather.  I don't have my sources in front of me, but I think that either one of the members of the People's Will--or someone who owned a house where they gathered--was Jewish, and therefore, if one person is Jewish there must be this big "Jewish World Conspiracy!"
With that being said, while I know that Nicholas did indeed read from The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, I don't think he actually believed it.

[Mexjames]

My four grandparents lived in the Empire when they were children, and they went out in the late 1920s, when it was clear that Communism wasn't going anywhere.

From the conversations I had with them, I can tell you that Nicholas II was an anti-Semite.  The most violent pogroms, like the Kishinev pogrom in 1903, happened during his reign.  Being an autocrat means that he was ultimately responsible for this, even if he didn't have any prior knowledge of the events in question.  In "Nicholas and Alexandra" Massie mentions the fact that Konstantin Pobedonostsev was his mentor, like he had been his father's, and he instilled anti-Semitism in both.

On top of this, the Empress herself had her anti-Semitic issues as well, and she was not exactly loved by her Jewish subjects. 

The fact that European monarchs and the people in general were anti-Semites, as they had been for centuries, doesn't justify that the Emperor and the Empress followed that line of thought, because they had a greater responsibility (again, along with the rest of the crowned heads of Europe and the democratically elected presidents in America): they had to govern their land, for which end they had Divine Right, and second, they had much better education than anyone else or so it seemed.  This link
http://media.wiley.com/product_data/excerpt/83/04712076/0471207683.pdf may shed some light on the subject.

The "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", a hoax perpetrated during Tsar Nicholas II's reign, is still widely read in the Arab countries, for instance, even though the Russian government recognized the work for what it was.  In the link above, it is said that it was none other than Grand Duchess Ella that promoted this libel.  It appeared in 1901 in the Empire and it seems that the Okhrana was behind it.  It is ironic that the Grand Duchess is buried in what is now Israel.

My grandparents and their parents and grandparents suffered a lot in the Empire just because they were Jews.  They were not well off, lived in little "shtetls" of townships, in wooden shacks with dirt floors, and some winters the cold air would blow through the walls of their houses.  The government pressed all sorts of absurd restrictions in their lives, and as much as the Tsar might have been a kind man otherwise, personally I think that regarding the Jews, history doesn't share that point of view.

[Cody]

The fact that European monarchs and the people in general were anti-Semites, as they had been for centuries, doesn't justify that the Emperor and the Empress followed that line of thought

I agree with a lot of what you said above, but I wanted to comment on this point.  The way that we are looking at the world that Nicholas II lived in now would not have existed back in the early 20th century.  Let me give you an example, in the later part of the 20th century there has been a great deal of friendship among the various religions of the world (Jewish, Christian, Muslim, etc...).  This friendship was brought on by the ecumenical movement, which began in the 1940s, and really exploded in the 1960s after the Catholic Church's Second Vatican Council.  But before this time, such friendliness would not have existed.  Therefore, it's hard for us to put our standards in a time when such standards did not exist.

[Cody]

There is a big difference between a Jew and a Zionist isnt there?
That book about the protocols of ZION, is it a a hoax or fact?Has it ever been officially discredited as a fake, officially?
What ever happened to the wealth of Russia afer 1917, or the churches and their property?How come the church was banned and its bishops and priests killed and banished?
Were the Jews of Russia Russian or Khazars?I cant seem to find them going back to the 9th century or before?
Werent most communist/bolsheviks of a paricular race or creed? Stalin and Beria etc?
I would have thought Christianity was the first true form of communism,how come the commies tried to destroy it?
I must go back and read my hebrew copy of the Talmud, see what that has to say about killing gentiles and the true nature of Christ!

I'll do my best to give a response to all of those questions.  There is a difference between being a Jew and a Zionist.  A Zionist supports the creation of Israel.  Not all Jews support Israel, because they believe that only that Messiah can bring the Jews back to Isreal--this is usually found among Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox Jews.  Regarding the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, it's very much a hoax.  As for why bishops and priests were banned after Communism took over Russia, is that Communism is very anti-religious.  Karl Marx, the founder of Communism, declared that religion was the "opium of the people."  Christianity does have form of socialism in it, but not Communism, which is considered the "black sheep" of the socialist movement.  Many of the Bolsheviks were Jewish--partially due to years of persecution of Jews under the tsarist regim--but Stalin was not one of them, and neither was Lenin--both were raised in the Orthodox Christian faith.  Be careful what the Talmud says about Jesus, because it won't be impartial.  From what I understand, the Talmund declares Jesus to have been an bastard son and something of a wizard.  The Talmud's view of Jesus would be very similar to Matthew's Gospel's view of the Pharisees.

[Mexjames]

I would just like to add that the vast majority of Jews support Israel, and only a very small minority like the "Neturai Qarta" don't; they were the ones that went to see the Iranian president last year.  Even very Orthodox Jews accept the State of Israel, their only regret is that it is a Jewish state run by lay Jews. 

The Jews of Russia were Jews, not Khazars.  According to what I've read mostly in the paper, genetics proves this as the Jewish genes seem to have remained rather constant over time.  Genes of Russian Jews and Jews from other places (Middle East, Turkey, Northern Africa), are remarkably similar.  I remember seeing a picture of a coin portraying a menorah (the chandelier described in the Old Testament that lit the Temple in Jerusalem), which was found in Crimea.  It was dated to 80 CE.  Way before the Romans destroyed the Second Temple (70 CE), there were Jewish settlements all around the Meditarranean basin, so I wouldn't be surprised that they would have settled around the Black Sea as well.

As for Stalin and Beria, to the best of my knowledge they were both Georgians.  Bulllocks excellent "Stalin and Hitler" is a comparative biography of both characters, proves that Stalin was educated as Russian Orthodox. 

As Cody correctly says, what you read in the Talmud regarding Jesus may not be what you'd expect.  I don't know if the Talmud says what Cody mentions below, but the account of what happened then is clearly not what the  Church says, and is very very delicate and not for everyone to read because it can lead to terrible misunderstandings.  Also, the Talmud was not written in Hebrew, it was written in Aramaic so unless you really understand that language I would respectfull advise you to stay away from that or otherwise, stick to an authorized version of the Talmud.

[Ilias_of_John]

Thanks for the information gentlemen.
I would not want anyone to think that any of us were racist or anti Jewish