Author Topic: Nicholas II and Anti-Semitism.  (Read 136151 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Forum Admin

  • Administrator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4665
  • www.alexanderpalace.org
    • View Profile
    • Alexander Palace Time Machine
Re: Nicholas II and Anti-Semitism.
« Reply #180 on: June 16, 2008, 04:29:29 PM »
The Easter Massacre at Kishinev in 1903 was organised with the Tsar's full knowledge and support. When 50 Jews were beaten to death in the streets and 600 more tortured he congratulated his minister of war and added, "Jews ought to be taught a lesson, they have got above themselves and are taking the lead of the revolutionary movement." In the autumn of 1906 he refused a request from the Council of Ministers that the most restrictive measures against Jews be lifted. Like the Kaiser, Nicholas and his wife believed in a worldwide Jewish conspiracy, and said, "Everywhere one sees the directing and destroying hand of Jewry!"

This statement is incorrect. Nicholas never made such statements, please provide your original source documentation to support your claim that he actually said these words.  Just because one book may "say so" doesn't mean he really did.
 Please see Fontanka 16, which contains the GARF files on the subject.
Plevhe was involved in the Kishnev pogrom of 1903.  April 6, 1903, the first day of Orthodox Easter, rumors spread in Kishnev that a ritual killing took place in nearby town of Dubossary by Jews during passover, and that in Kishnev itself a jewish doctor had tried to get blood for a passover ritual from a young servant girl.  The pogrom broke out just before noon that day.

Fontanka 16, pg. 233:
"By mid afternoon the governor R.S. von Raaben, issued orders to the police and military and by evening they had largely suppressed the pogrom.
     Groups opposed to the government laid the blame for the Kishnev pogrom on the authorities and in particular on the minister of the interior.

pg 234 "...Documents show that Plevhe, having received news of the pogrom from the local authorities, undertook all measures possible under the law to restore order.  He also reported to the Tsar about his supplementary measures: "Despite the summoning of the military and the arrest of more than 60 rioters, disorders continued.  The governor requested authority to impose measures of strengthened security.  I approved the request by telegram." [document in GARF 601/1/1046 sheet 2]
    Following the pacification of the outbreak, Plehve secured the Tsar's agreement to dismiss von Raaben because of his poor handling of the disturbances.  He sent his director of police, A.A. Lopukhin to Kishnev to investigate the conduct of the local authorities at the time of the pogroms.  Lopukhin did not discover any trances of premeditated preparation of the pogrom, but he concluded that the events could not have taken place without the participation of the lower police ranks.  The Gendarme officers seemed duplicitous. ... the minister [Plehve] frankly condemned the police in a report to Nicholas II."
  emphasis mine.

« Last Edit: June 16, 2008, 04:31:53 PM by Forum Admin »

Offline Forum Admin

  • Administrator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4665
  • www.alexanderpalace.org
    • View Profile
    • Alexander Palace Time Machine
Re: Nicholas II and Anti-Semitism.
« Reply #181 on: June 16, 2008, 04:41:11 PM »
Harvey,

As a newbie, I will assume you don't understand our Forum rules.  "blanket" suppositions such as you make are not allowed when specific historical source material has been requested to support them. I have removed your last inappropriate post as it violates our rules.  Please keep your discussion to specific supported statements.  I will not permit you to continue in current manner as it violates our policy and rules.  Please conform or refrain.

This is a place of valid historical discussion, not unsupported blanket condemnation of anyone without the real history to support it.
You are coming new to a discussion that has been gone over several times, for some 50 plus pages of discussion over several threads. I urge you again to use SEARCH function and do some reading first before shooting your mouth off about an issue you don't seem to understand as fully as long time users.

thanks for your cooperation.

FA

Offline Harvey

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 31
    • View Profile
Re: Nicholas II and Anti-Semitism.
« Reply #182 on: June 17, 2008, 07:53:19 AM »
His support and membership of the Union of the Russian People and the Black Hundreds is yet further evidence of Nicholas' active support for the extreme violence levelled against Jews and students in his name.

Offline Forum Admin

  • Administrator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4665
  • www.alexanderpalace.org
    • View Profile
    • Alexander Palace Time Machine
Re: Nicholas II and Anti-Semitism.
« Reply #183 on: June 17, 2008, 08:24:29 AM »
That statement makes no logical sense.

Offline Forum Admin

  • Administrator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4665
  • www.alexanderpalace.org
    • View Profile
    • Alexander Palace Time Machine
Re: Nicholas II and Anti-Semitism.
« Reply #184 on: June 17, 2008, 08:45:14 AM »
I'm sorry "Harvey" but I will not permit unsupported statements lacking their source documentation in this thread. I have deleted the last one, and will delete any and all further such unsupported allegations without further notice.

You're not the first one who tries to come in here and ramrod an  unsupported agenda down the throats of readers, I've seen your kind come and always go for years now.

You're warned. Play by the rules or be banned.  I don't have time or patience left to deal with your sort.

FA

Offline Harvey

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 31
    • View Profile
Re: Nicholas II and Anti-Semitism.
« Reply #185 on: June 17, 2008, 08:57:10 AM »
Oh sorry, I didn't realize this is a fascist site. For your information all of that deleted post is documeneted in "The Fate of the Romanovs". One of the reasons King Edward VII had to cancel his visit to Russia in 1906 was because his people knew what was happening to students, Jews and the workers under the direct authority of the Tsar. I am sure that had Edward lived he too would have denied the family asylum in Britain, because as a constitutional monarch he could not be seen to condone the excesses of an authoritarian regime.

Offline Forum Admin

  • Administrator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4665
  • www.alexanderpalace.org
    • View Profile
    • Alexander Palace Time Machine
Re: Nicholas II and Anti-Semitism.
« Reply #186 on: June 17, 2008, 09:12:13 AM »
This is NOT A "FASCIST" SITE.  Quite the opposite.  We ask ONLY that you support allegations with the facts and source documentation.  FOTR is a secondary source.  Some of which has been found to be inaccurate. For example, the opening of the GARF Okhrana files has proved that Nicholas II nor his Ministers in fact did NOT "pre plan" nor finance the 1903 Kishniev pogrom. It didn't happen.

 Please go to the original source material and support your allegations. Period.  There is  nothing fascist in demanding that you put your money where your mouth is.  We simply have an obligation to the thousands of students ranging from primary school to university post-graduate who use our site for their research to keep the information here accurate.

Since YOU brought it up, the AUTHOR of FOTR herself, Penny Wilson, participated in this same discussion, and had you bothered to get off your lazy bum and use the "search" feature I have asked you to use twice before, you would KNOW that the author's themselves don't believe your conclusions to mean what you think they do.  Penny, rightly I think, does believe that Nicholas was Anti-Semitic in that he had a prejudice against them as a racially non-Russian ethnic group, as he did many others.  However, there is ZERO evidence to support the claim that he aided, abetted, approved, planned or wished the murder of ANY of his subjects as a group, Jews or others.

Offline LisaDavidson

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 2665
    • View Profile
Re: Nicholas II and Anti-Semitism.
« Reply #187 on: June 17, 2008, 12:56:45 PM »
Oh sorry, I didn't realize this is a fascist site. For your information all of that deleted post is documeneted in "The Fate of the Romanovs". One of the reasons King Edward VII had to cancel his visit to Russia in 1906 was because his people knew what was happening to students, Jews and the workers under the direct authority of the Tsar. I am sure that had Edward lived he too would have denied the family asylum in Britain, because as a constitutional monarch he could not be seen to condone the excesses of an authoritarian regime.

And, I will not stand for your name calling, especially with Rob. I find your language and demeanor offensive. Any repeats and I will go straight to the owner of the site about your offensive conduct.

You are certainly entitled to voice an opinion as long as you are careful to draw a distinction between what is your opinion and what is fact.

Offline Michael HR

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 645
  • Imperial Corps Des Pages
    • View Profile
Re: Nicholas II and Anti-Semitism.
« Reply #188 on: June 17, 2008, 02:01:12 PM »
I think I shall duck for cover....


: )
Remembering the Imperial Corps Des Pages - The Spirit of Imperial Russia


Offline Harvey

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 31
    • View Profile
Re: Nicholas II and Anti-Semitism.
« Reply #189 on: June 17, 2008, 02:09:20 PM »
Why?

Offline Mexjames

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 75
    • View Profile
Re: Nicholas II and Anti-Semitism.
« Reply #190 on: June 17, 2008, 04:16:59 PM »
Harvey, during my childhood and early youth, and even five years ago, I heard all sorts of stories about the Emperor and the Empress, from people who lived in the Pale during their early years, until their mid-20s when they left what had become the Soviet Union.  Some of the stories I heard went from gruesome to unbelievable, and coming from people who lived in "shtetls" in Poland and the Ukraine, I don't think they have any credibility.

I never heard my grandparents refer to the Emperor and the Empress in a demeaning way; my grandparents didn't like them at all, though, but they never mentioned them in a disrespectful way.

Harvey, I'm trying to do some research on the conditions prevalent at the time, because my children must know their family history.  The material I needed is quoted above, and I'd like to tell you in a very respectful manner, to put quotations and cite your bibliography (if you have it).  That way you will contribute to what others like me are trying to do here.

I can also print all the stories I heard as a youth, none which is substantiated and as such, will remain in the realm of gossip.

I think that the revolution went bad for everyone, and we must respect those who died there.  The damage is done.

We Jews have managed to mend our fences, up to a point, with Germany, and I find no reason of why we shouldn't mend them with Russia too.

Nicholas II tried to do his job to the best of his abilities.  He was brought up in a way of life and under a set of circumstances that were useless when he had to cope with a new world.  I think that neither he nor his advisors were prepared to cope with a parliament, more freedom of expression, etc., and in doing what they were trained to do, earned the hate and distrust of some, paying with their lives in the process.

If the stories that are documented above are true, and there's reason to believe they are, it behooves us to revise the anti-Semitism of the Emperor, and to differentiate facts from opinions. 

The incident told above about the turpentine manufacturer speaks for itself a lot, not to mention the others.  Had the Tsar been an anti-Semite, believe me, that Jew wouldn't have gotten 25 rubles which were a fortune at the time, when I'm told, people had to save their kopecks to buy a loaf of bread for Sabbath.



« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 04:38:09 PM by Mexjames »

Offline Forum Admin

  • Administrator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4665
  • www.alexanderpalace.org
    • View Profile
    • Alexander Palace Time Machine
Re: Nicholas II and Anti-Semitism.
« Reply #191 on: June 17, 2008, 04:24:43 PM »
and for the record, Harvey, my own grandparents were subjects of Alexander III and Nicholas II and lived in the Pale.  We only want to provide a historically ACCURATE picture of Nicholas, and not one subject to the myriad of half truths, Bolshevist propoganda and outright lies which many people blindly accept as the truth.

Offline Harvey

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 31
    • View Profile
Re: Nicholas II and Anti-Semitism.
« Reply #192 on: June 18, 2008, 06:04:16 AM »
At least George V was not anti-semitic, unlike his cousins.

Offline Michael HR

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 645
  • Imperial Corps Des Pages
    • View Profile
Re: Nicholas II and Anti-Semitism.
« Reply #193 on: June 18, 2008, 08:08:53 AM »
I think this also shows how far we have come in the last 100 years in dealing with and wiping out this problem. Things are not perfect but they are better than they were. I have never understood prejudice based on religion, race etc. It is difficult for us as we did not live in the epoch of Nicholas II and don't really know his thoughts. I did read somewhere that he was gong to change a law or laws in favour of the Jewish population but that it was the Imperial Family that objected. I might be wrong about this and cannot remember where I read it.

Perhaps I should reread my books with this subject in mind and see what I discover.

Michael HR
Remembering the Imperial Corps Des Pages - The Spirit of Imperial Russia


Offline Forum Admin

  • Administrator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4665
  • www.alexanderpalace.org
    • View Profile
    • Alexander Palace Time Machine
Re: Nicholas II and Anti-Semitism.
« Reply #194 on: June 18, 2008, 08:26:38 AM »
That discussion is over in the other thread, the Imperial Family and Anti-Semitism.