Author Topic: Maria without jewels in Ipatiev house  (Read 56152 times)

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Offline blessOTMA

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Re: Maria without jewels in Ipatiev house
« Reply #105 on: November 02, 2013, 01:41:06 PM »
I believe if Marie was with Alix so much  at this time it was due to her amazing usefulness...which she more than  proved on the trip to Ipatiev.  Marie is the strongest daughter  physically at this time imo. Alix would have great  need of that...plus she let her Mother cheat at cards ...lol as in Olga observing Alix and Marie"  take turns winning " ...one can hardly not make use of such a gem

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Offline Kassafrass

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Re: Maria without jewels in Ipatiev house
« Reply #106 on: November 02, 2013, 09:23:54 PM »
I never knew Maria to be such a strong person until recently. In my mind she was always the beautiful, sweet little flirt (which she was of course) but there was much more to her.

Are there other entries, perhaps by Nicky or the girls to suggest what OTA was doing those final days?
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Offline Sarushka

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Re: Maria without jewels in Ipatiev house
« Reply #107 on: November 03, 2013, 06:48:20 AM »
Here's the full roster of who stayed in with Alix during daily walks:
15/28 June: Olga stayed with me
16/29 June: Maria remained with me
17/30 June: Anastasia remained with me
18  June/1 July: Marie remained with me
19 June/2 July: Tatiana stayed with me
20 June/3 July: Tatiana stopped with me in the morning when they went out, & Olga in the afternoon
21 June/4 July: Olga remained with me
22 June/ 5 July: no comment
23 June/6 July: Anastasia remained with me
24 June/7 July: went out with the others for the first time
25 June/8 July: Maria remained at home with me
26 June/9 July: Olga stayed with me
27 June/10 July: went out
28 June/11 July: Anastasia read to me
29 June/12 July: Maria remained with me
30 June/13 July: Anastasia remained with me
1/14 July: Tatiana stayed with me
2/15 July: read with Maria
3/16 July: Tatiana stayed with me

The totals are Olga 4, Tatiana 4, Maria 5 (not including hair-washing), Anastasia 5. IMO, that's a pretty even distribution. With the exception of helping wash her mother's hair, I don't think Maria's contribution stands out from the others.
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Re: Maria without jewels in Ipatiev house
« Reply #108 on: November 03, 2013, 10:05:54 AM »
The totals are Olga 4, Tatiana 4, Maria 5 (not including hair-washing), Anastasia 5. IMO, that's a pretty even distribution. With the exception of helping wash her mother's hair, I don't think Maria's contribution stands out from the others.

There doesn't seem to have been a schedule (Tatiana stays with her mother for two days, then nothing for over a week, then two days close together), yet in the end it does lead to the girls keeping their mother company for roughly the same amount of days. If I would have expected anyone to stand out as spending more time indoors it would have been Olga, since more than one book I've read refers to her depression at this time and the more companionable mood of the younger sisters.

Rodney_G.

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Re: Maria without jewels in Ipatiev house
« Reply #109 on: November 03, 2013, 12:41:54 PM »
On this subject it may be useful to re-view the opening post and replies 3 and 7. The gist of them is that it's not meaningful to consider Marie without jewels at Ipatiev House because , though collectively the family's jewels were in their living quarters, none of the daughters nor Alexandra were wearing them on a daily basis, i.e., getting up in the morning and putting on garments , their regular clothing, with jewels concealed inside. To do so would have been madness, risking disaster. A tear in the garment, a guard noticing an oddly shaped item of clothing, and mainly, a random bodily patdown of any of them , might betray the concealment. And all for what? None of the captives expected to be leaving the house immediately, that is, without hours in which to put on the jewel-bearing clothes.

Although we'll never know for sure, the most likely arrangement was that the jewelry in IH was retained individually by the  daughters who brought them from Tobolsk, with possibly some hiding place in their quarters. We know that at least some rearrangement was made prior to their evening of unplanned departure, July 16, because Alexandra herself had valuables on her (a gold wrist piece? I forget).

It's a little odd that Marie wasn't carrying concealed jewels on the last night when the family felt they needed to take resources with them for
whatever hope of freedom their Bolshevik captors might allow them. But on the other hand, to imagine that Marie's parents so distrusted her that she , what? might be expected to bolt from her beloved siblings and parents to go off on her own with a Communist or into wherever in the Urals or Siberia is just absurd.

If there were some fear that Marie might use her allotted jewels to bribe a captor into granting her freedom, well that too doesn't square with the unquestioned family unity for which "we seven " are rightly known.


Offline Kassafrass

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Re: Maria without jewels in Ipatiev house
« Reply #110 on: November 03, 2013, 11:47:18 PM »
How many here truly believe that Maria might actually betray her family in such a way? We did not know them personally, but all evidence we have on them and their characters show a relatively good insight into their personalities and what they were like and I personally cannot see Maria doing such a thing to them, even if her hormones and feelings were running wild. If there is anything to be learned about MN in these posts it's that she was definitely one of the strongest, if not the strongest in the family at the time and that's not just physically. I think she had a strong enough resolve and solid values and I don't think she would do something that insane.

To me, the most probable reason is because she left Tobolsk before the other siblings did, giving them the chance to work on sewing them together while she and their parents were moving to Yekaterinburg.

Also, what do we have that says that Maria was not wearing concealed jewels on the night of their murder? I thought the bullets were bouncing off of all four of the girls.
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TheMauveRoom

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Re: Maria without jewels in Ipatiev house
« Reply #111 on: November 04, 2013, 11:17:50 AM »
This is what Alexandra Tegleva (Shura) says about the concealment of the jewels in Tobolsk:

“They put the jewels in wadding, covered it with two brassieres of heavy linen, and then sewed these together and covered them with wadding on both sides. The Empress’ jewels were hidden in two pairs of double brassieres, each weighing four and a half pounds in all and each containing brilliants, emeralds, and amethysts. The Grand Duchess Tatiana wore one and the Grand Duchess Anastasia the other.”

“The Grand Duchesses’ jewels were sewn into a double brassiere in the same way, and this (I don’t know how much it weighed) was worn by Olga Nicolaievna. Besides, they carried many pearls on their bodies, under their blouses. We also sewed jewels into their hats between the lining and the velvet; I remember a large pearl necklace and a brooch with a large sapphire and brilliants.
   The Grand Duchesses had blue outer garments of cheviot. These had sashes on each of which were two buttons; we ripped them off and in their place sewed jewels, brilliants I believe, wrapping them first in wadding and then in black silk. The Grand Duchesses had also grey garments of English tricot with black stripes; autumn clothing which they wore during the summer in bad weather. Here, as well, we ripped off the buttons and sewed on the jewels in black silk and wadding.”

This is from the books "The House of Special Purpose."

Based on the testament of Alexandra Tegleva; Olga, Tatiana, and Anastasia had the majority of jewels concealed on their persons in the special brassieres. This was because they were the three girls present in Tobolsk at the time. However, she also says that they concealed more jewels in other items of clothing so it is conceivable and I think, likely that Maria did have some jewels on her person the night of the murder. She simply did not have the same "armor" as her sisters because she was not there when the items were being concealed.

As Rodney_G said, I don't think that the girls wore the jeweled brassieres on a daily basis either. They would have been too bulky and heavy and could have raised suspicion with the guards. I think they were hidden somewhere to be put on when it seemed that they might be moved to a different location. The accounts from the guards that night do say that the Imperial party took a long time to get ready to come down to the basement. They were probably removing their valuables from whatever hiding place they were in and making sure they were properly concealed for a potential move to another location.

I absolutely do not think Maria's lack of hidden jewels is an indication of some kind of stain on her character or any kind of distrust by her family. Maria was kind to everyone and liked to flirt, but I absolutely do not think that she did anything unseemly to cause a rift in the family. As was said before, the girls spent about equal amounts of time with their mother during the Ekaterinburg period. Neither of the Emperor or Empress mention anything in their last diary entries that indicate that Maria may have been distrusted, in trouble, or anything out of the ordinary.

Frankly, I'm a little disgusted that people are making nasty insinuations about poor Maria.

Rodney_G.

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Re: Maria without jewels in Ipatiev house
« Reply #112 on: November 04, 2013, 06:18:11 PM »
TheMauveRoom, your last sentence is right on. Certainly any nasty speculation about Marie is totally unfounded. Some here have naturally wondered why she was not wearing jewels concealed  in her clothing that last night. I understand that and it's something we must think about. But to conclude too much substantially negative about Marie from that fact is a stretch in my opinion and runs counter to all we know of her strength of character and unfailing familial love.

TheMauveRoom

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Re: Maria without jewels in Ipatiev house
« Reply #113 on: November 04, 2013, 09:21:31 PM »
My thoughts exactly, Rodney_G!

Offline Andrei Beanov

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Re: Maria without jewels in Ipatiev house
« Reply #114 on: November 05, 2013, 04:15:01 AM »
Is this not all just 'speculation' ?
How would anybody know who was or wasn't carrying concealed jewels ? From Yurovsky's words ? I would think ALL the females did.........

Offline Sarushka

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Re: Maria without jewels in Ipatiev house
« Reply #115 on: November 05, 2013, 06:06:42 AM »
How would anybody know who was or wasn't carrying concealed jewels ? From Yurovsky's words ?

Yes, exactly. Yurovsky noted it at the time of the Romanovs' burial. He'd also observed that Maria had been treated differently by the family — like a stepsister, I believe he said — and assumed that had something to do with her lack of jewels. (I don't have the exact page number offhand, but it's in Ispoved' Tsareubiits.) Yurovsky didn't know that "stepsister" was one of Maria's childhood nicknames. Her sisters called her that when they were exasperated with her angelic behavior.
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TheMauveRoom

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Re: Maria without jewels in Ipatiev house
« Reply #116 on: November 05, 2013, 07:49:38 PM »
I have always been under the impression that all the females had concealed valuables on their persons at the time of the execution. I think it was Yurovsky (maybe another account, I can't remember exactly) who said that the tsarevich was wearing jewels hidden under his clothes as well. He also mentions a long strand of pearls concealed around the Empress' waist. It seems like the only one of the Imperial family who didn't have many extra valuables on him was the Emperor.

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Re: Maria without jewels in Ipatiev house
« Reply #117 on: November 05, 2013, 08:05:00 PM »
Also, Alexandra Tegleva only knew the situation of the jewels up until the arrival in Ekaterinburg. After that, we can only speculate about who wore what. The grand duchesses liked to share clothes so it is entirely conceivable that Maria was wearing one of the outfits where jewels were concealed in Tobolsk, or that she was wearing one of the brassieres Tegleva described instead of one of her sisters.

Offline Kassafrass

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Re: Maria without jewels in Ipatiev house
« Reply #118 on: November 06, 2013, 01:26:22 AM »
According to Yurovsky's 1922 report of that fateful night:

"Once we were alone, I resumed the search for valuables. These were found on Olga, Tatiana, and Anastasia, but on Marie’s body. I was not surprised by this, because once again it reflected her disgraced position in the Romanov Family at the end."

But if this was the case, how was it that Maria was able to survive the first onslaught of bullets and had to be reportedly finished by a shot to the head?

I've read in another thread that Yurovsky seemed to enjoy slandering Maria Nikolaevna. Is it possible that these words about the valuables are untrue?
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Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Maria without jewels in Ipatiev house
« Reply #119 on: November 06, 2013, 03:52:04 AM »
'If this was the case, how was it that Maria was able to survive the first onslaught of bullets and had to be reportedly finished by a shot to the head?'

Could it simply be that the shooting was very bad? Even military firing squads shooting only one person sometimes mess it up. For this reason the officer in charge carries a pistol and sometimes has to use it!

According to FOTR, the members of the firing squad all wanted to shoot Nicholas, so initially the firing was concentrated on him. Then the cellar gradually filled with smoke, the victims were moving about etc etc. Further, a wound may well be fatal but not instantly. This is very much the case with chest and stomach wounds. So Marie might well have had a fatal wound but had to be finished off.

Ann