Maria without jewels in Ipatiev house

[pers]

To those of you who want some illumination on corsetry, I refer to the Waspcreations webpage.  If one looks at photographs of  ladies at  the turn of the century, we would term that sort of corsetry as so-called tight-lacing.  That will explain my unbelief in jewels hidden in a garment between the body and the corset.

[Martyn]

May I add my opinion to this matter?

I seem to recall that we have discussed this issue elsewhere, although the location of the discussion escapes me at present.

From the information that we have about the night of the murders and from the knowledge that we have of the IF, it would seem to me that the girls would have been wearing corsets of a fairly conventional nature.

Granted, the brassière had been around since the early years of the twentieth century ( I think that the first patent for this type of garment was issued in 1913); however, IMO the ladies of the IF would have been too conservative in taste and incllination to have worn such garments.

We have testimony that the remains (the busk fronts) of corsets were found at the mine, so it is safe to assume that these were worn all the time that the female members of the IF were dressed.

It is feasible, therefore, that the jewels were sewn between two chemises that were then worn under their corsets.  By this time, corsets could be purchased and were not all custom made; whether this was the case or not matters little, as the point of the corset is that the setting of it is variable and that its primary aim is to smooth the line of the figure under the clothing, give an added layer of 'protection' between top and bottom layers, and not simply to compress and contort the figure into ridiculously small waists, (Alix would never have permitted her daughters to wear corsets that were too tightly laced in any case).  Thus the corset could be worn tighter or looser, according to taste.

These corsets would have covered the lower bust and the torso, down through the waist and onto the hip, dipping in front.  They may also have had shoulder straps.

Someone else has mentioned that their outer garments were quite loose; skirts that fitted only at the waist coupled with loose blouses would have meant that these chemises could be worn under loosened corsets, in order to conceal the jewellery.

The jewellery in question was in the form of packets of loose stones, I believe, and would have been easier to conceal in this fashion than bulky pieces of jewellery in their settings. The wadding that was apparently used as an interlining between the two chemises would have been dual-purpose; to conceal the nature of the hidden elements and to cushion the torsos of the ladies from the intrinsic hardness of the stones.

This method of concealing the jewellery seems to me to be the most consistent with the known mode of dressing of the female members of the IF; chemises with corsets worn on top seems to me the most likely method that they employed.

[Elisabeth]

Martyn's explanation would seem to make sense, except that the Bolsheviks did not complain of being unable to stab the torsos, they were unable to penetrate the chests, either with bayonets or bullets...

I'm willing to grant that "lifchik" meant "chemise" in early 20th-century Russian. (Although at present every Russian I've asked says it means "bra.") However, no one has yet informed me specifically of that fact, and I haven't found it in any of my dictionaries. Does anyone know for certain? Because I'm looking at the direct testimonies of the grand duchesses' maids to the White investigators. What did "lifchik" mean in 1918?

[Robert_Hall]

Yes, Martyn's discourse makes sense to me. Actually, back to what I had envisioned to begin.  I did think that jewels in the bras would make the "sag" noticeably, not that they would be  "Mae Wests".

[Elisabeth]

I haven't been able to locate an earlier meaning of "lifchik" but an alternate meaning is "bodice," so it could also have meant "chemise" in 1918. Martyn's description makes the most overall sense to me. I agree, it's hard to envision how the girls could have comfortably worn brassieres weighted down with so many jewels; moreover, Olga also wore several strands of pearls concealed beneath her clothing (so I don't know, maybe you would have ended up with a Mae West effect after all).

Does anyone know what kind of material was used to make chemises - cotton, linen, silk? And what is the difference between a chemise and a camisole?

[hikaru]

I think , that I could help you, Elisabeth.
"Lifchik" is not chemise.  It is a "bra" but not exactly the same thing as now.
I could imagine it clearly, because my grand grand mother made for my mother a couple of such "lifchiks" when she was a child. And I used to wear them when I was a child.

Those "lifhchiks" was putted on the breast and its' longation was almost till (the distance about "lifchik" and naval was about 5 sm) navel . There were 3 or 4 bottoms on the back. Chemise had to be putted on the "lifchik". ( I think that for the adults lifchik were chorter , but not such short as now , for adults lifchik also had 3 or 4 bottoms on the back).

Lifchiks were maken from the several pieces (mostly 2 pieces , lying on each other- so it made  the lifchik a reversable thing) of the firm fabrics .  Mainly the following two types of fabrics were used: flanely ( flannel  in English ) and satin (sateen in English) . I want to say that it was quite
heavy.

Chemises were made from batist (cambric in English)( tsar's things too - I saw it in the Petergof Museum)
,  or cotton  and maybe, silk ( I did not see silk chemises in museum but who knows..).  

Silk was used a lot from the hygienic point of view ,because the silk has the power to kill the bad bacteriums.
A walls in some tsar's bathtube , or bathtube's cover sheets - were made from silk. ( You could see such things in the Royal bathrooms of Peterhof palace).

[pers]

Those of you that have FOTR, see pages 136-137 with reference to Tegleva's testimony and discussion by the authors on the topic of the hiding of the jewels in their clothes.

[Forum Admin]

Sokolov Investigation, Original report in French. Pg. 252:
"Déposition de Tegleva: Nous prîmes quelques camisoles en toile épaisse.  Nous placames des bijoux dans de l'ouate, et aprés avoir caché cette ouate entre deux camisoles, nous avons cousu celle-ci ensemble.  Dans une premiere paire de camisoles que revêtit Tatiana, cous cachames environ 4 livres 1/2 de bijoux de l'Impératrice...

New Practical French-English, English-French Dictionary, 1908:
Camisole: short night dress, camisole.

Not a bra, not a corset...and not the chemisette (which is specifically mentioned else where "En outre, sous leurs chemisettes, les Grandes-Duchesses emporterent beaucoup de perles".)

[Elisabeth]

Thanks for clearing that up, FA and Hikaru! I can't tell you  how grateful I am.

It seems pretty clear that the original Russian term for "camisole" was "lifchik," since this is the word that Tutel'berg used in her deposition in the original Russian. (I don't have Tegleva's statement, unfortunately - I photocopied Tutel'berg's from the unabridged Sokolov report in Russian many years ago.) Hikaru says that the fabric used in lifchiks was doubled and very strong, which it would have had to have been to support 4 1/2 lbs. of jewels! It's obviously a Russian variation on the camisole or chemise, and definitely not a bra.  

[hikaru]

To whom it may concerne:  2 years ago in the St. Petersburg 's City History Museum ( Petropavlovskaya Fortress) there was an exhibition  about the history of female underwear of 20th century.
(i.e. that the samples of such things are now in the museum's fund)

[Martyn]

The underclothes of the female members of the IF would have been made of fine silk (such as habotai), batiste, Swiss cotton or lawn.

All of these fabrics are very fine, eminently suited to the delicate skins of royal and aristocratic ladies.

I have read elsewhere ( but typically cannot remember where) that the underclothes of the Grand Duchesses and the Empress were in a parlous state in the latter days of their captivity, due to the repeated laundering of their undergarments.

The fragility of the stuffs used to make these garments meant that they would have to be renewed frequently; in normal crcumstances the Imperial wardobe would have been replenished at regular intervals.  In Tobolsk and Ekaterinburg there would have little opportunity for this to happen.

As the FA rightly points out, a chemise is a garment that can sometimes be in the form of a short slip; it is usually waist-length.  A chemisette is a garment that primarily covers the bust.

[AGRBear]

I have also read that  jewels were sewn into the lining of hats.  Also that jewels were also buttons on coats ie the real buttons were removed and the jewels sewn on, with wadding around the jewels and then sewn back onto the coats as buttons.

[lovebird]

Well  , I have heard from inside sources Maria survied because ; her new love the young guard helped her escape with Alexi the night of the murders; she and alexi survived  they were hid,and transported out of RUSSIA  .

[Mgmstl]

The underclothes of the female members of the IF would have been made of fine silk (such as habotai), batiste, Swiss cotton or lawn.

All of these fabrics are very fine, eminently suited to the delicate skins of royal and aristocratic ladies.

I have read elsewhere ( but typically cannot remember where) that the underclothes of the Grand Duchesses and the Empress were in a parlous state in the latter days of their captivity, due to the repeated laundering of their undergarments.

The fragility of the stuffs used to make these garments meant that they would have to be renewed frequently; in normal crcumstances the Imperial wardobe would have been replenished at regular intervals.  In Tobolsk and Ekaterinburg there would have little opportunity for this to happen.

As the FA rightly points out, a chemise is a garment that can sometimes be in the form of a short slip; it is usually waist-length.  A chemisette is a garment that primarily covers the bust.

I have often wondered about the jewels found by Baroness Buxhoeveden, and sent to London, and later found by Xenia during a second search for the jewels.

What other garments would they have hidden jewels in? It is obvious from FOTR that Yurovsky knew from Buxhoeveden where the jewels were hidden in the chemises.  

[Forum Admin]

Bear, above, was actually correct.  Stones were sewn into hat linings, coat linings, and put into coat buttons.  Also, Yurovski didn't need to hear about the chemises from Buxhoeveden, remember that he found them on the bodies of the Grand Duchesses after the murder so he already KNEW where they were hidden.