Maria without jewels in Ipatiev house

[AGRBear]

For some reason Buxhoeveden, who was more loyal than any of the other Romanovs because she stayed with the IF as long as she could, has had some bad press.  

I understand there was some kind of falling out with one of the Romanovs but that doesn't mean Buxhoeveden was a villian in this story.

Anyway, back to the jewels.

It was Buxhoeveden who wrote to GD Xenia telling her that she'd find in one of the boxes sent from Ekaterinburg the jewels of Empress Alexandra's that had been rolled up in a cloth.

Source p. 155-6   THE LOST FORTUNE OF THE TSARS by William Clarke.

These particular jewels are not recorded nor are they otherwised mentioned so it is not known what jewels they were nor how many were found.

AGRBear

[Mgmstl]

For some reason Buxhoeveden, who was more loyal than any of the other Romanovs because she stayed with the IF as long as she could, has had some bad press.  

I understand there was some kind of falling out with one of the Romanovs but that doesn't mean Buxhoeveden was a villian in this story.

Anyway, back to the jewels.

It was Buxhoeveden who wrote to GD Xenia telling her that she'd find in one of the boxes sent from Ekaterinburg the jewels of Empress Alexandra's that had been rolled up in a cloth.

Source p. 155-6   THE LOST FORTUNE OF THE TSARS by William Clarke.

These particular jewels are not recorded nor are they otherwised mentioned so it is not known what jewels they were nor how many were found.

AGRBear

Bear,

Baroness Buxhoeveden was the one who informed Rodinov, WHERE the jewels were hidden on the Grand Duchess and the Empress.  (See FOTR  pgs 68-69 & 141-143 & 148 & 265).  It is believed she betrayed the location of the jewels and turned over 200,000 roubles to the Bolsheviks that was meant for the Romanovs and their rescue.  The Bolsheviks, may have known where the jewels were previously, but she did confirm their hiding places.    The Tsar's sister, Grand Duchess Xenia also believed she  (pgs 505-506 FOTR) could not be trusted and was guilty of treachery and constantly refused to receive her.      

[AGRBear]

Since I am not that familiar with this part of the story as some of you are,  I do recall Buxhovenden was under arrest.  I also assume that the Boslehviks wanted to discredit anyone who had been loyal to the IF as Buxhhovenden had been.  

If the Bolsheviks were planning on murdering the IF, all they had to do was search everything and find the jewels later, they didn't need Buxhovenden to tell them.

So,  I'm not sure I agree with Greg and Penny if they indicated Buxhovenden was disloyal or a snitch.  But, like I said, I don't know much about this part of the story.

Didn't Buxhovenden write a book?  Did she talk about the time she was under arrest?

Oh, and remember,  the Bolsheviks were very good at torture so had I been in her shoes and because I dislike pain,  I'm not sure I wouldn't have told them what they wanted just so I could get the heck out of there as fast as I could and get away as far as I could.

Despite what some of the poster say, the Bolsheviks in charge were not the sweet nice kids getting a little excitiment in their lives.

As for the problems between Buxhovden and GD Xenia, I wouldn't know.  I could make a guess but that would be just a guess.

AGRBear

[etonexile]

Yes...It's more than a bit unfair to judge people who are tortured....We'd all like to think that we could be strong and noble to the end....but until one actually has to face torture....we don't know....

[Mgmstl]

Yes...It's more than a bit unfair to judge people who are tortured....We'd all like to think that we could be strong and noble to the end....but until one actually has to face torture....we don't know....

I was not judging Baroness Buxhoeveden, and BTW I don't think she was tortured.  She was guarunteed her safety, for her information.  In her position we would all possibly do the same, so NO I AM NOT judging her.

Baroness Buxhoeveden's role in this can be found in FOTR  pgs 68-69, 141-143, 148, 265 & 505-506/
If you have the book I suggest taking the time to read these pages, to have an understanding as to what I am referring to.

[Elisabeth]

Michael is right, Sophie Buxhoeveden was not tortured by the Bolsheviks. I imagine she was living in fear for her life though, since anyone with half a brain would have known by this point that the Bolsheviks were up to no good and that the chances of survival for those in the imperial suite were slim at best.

This would have been especially true in her case because she joined the imperial family in Tobolsk much later than the rest of the suite (I believe only after the October Revolution?), so she would have had a better idea of the deteriorating conditions in Petrograd than the others, having been in the capital city longer.

[Sarastasia]

I'm sorry to introduce a contridiction, but I understood that Maria DID have jewels, that was how she was one of the last ones standing when they were shot.

Sarastasia

[RealAnastasia]

Don't apologize, Sarastasia. If you read FOTR by Penny Wilson and Greg King, some witnesses of the massacre said that Ermakov tryed, in vain to pierce's Maria's bodice with his bayonet, but he couldn't.She was shielded by the jewels, as all the others, even Alexei. He must "finished her off" with a gunshot in her head.

RealAnastasia.

[Ortino]

I'm sorry to introduce a contridiction, but I understood that Maria DID have jewels, that was how she was one of the last ones standing when they were shot.

Sarastasia

I understood her to have to remained alive longer because she was shot in the leg at first, which is clearly not fatal. Marie did not have jewels sewn into her clothes like the others because she left with Nicholas and Alexandra, and the others did not begin sewing until after their departure.

[Sarastasia]

I understood her to have to remained alive longer because she was shot in the leg at first, which is clearly not fatal. Marie did not have jewels sewn into her clothes like the others because she left with Nicholas and Alexandra, and the others did not begin sewing until after their departure.

Then, if she had no jewels, then how did she remain alive for so long, if she had nothing guarding (E.g: jewels) her body??

Sarastasia

[RealAnastasia]

She was shot in the leg, yes, but she was also bayoneted by Ermakov. He wasn't able to pierce her bodice.

RealAnastasia.

[Finelly]

Q:  Why would she not have had jewels sewn in her garments like her sisters?

A:  I have no idea.  But I think we can assume that it wasn't because she travelled to Ekaterinburg with her parents and her sisters were left behind and instructed to sew the jewels into clothing.  Why?  Because Alexandra was travelling with Maria and she appeared to have jewels (pearls) sewn in her clothing.  So either Alexandra and Maria did it while they were in Ekaterinburg, or the girls who stayed behind did the sewing and concealing for everyone and gave them the garments when they got there.

Would Alexandra have refused to let Maria have the jewels because of her relationship (whatever it was) with the guard?  Well, there is some evidence that whatever happened was devastating to N, A, and Olga.  Olga pretty much didn't talk to M after that.  N's diary is completely silent for the first time in his life for a period of days.  A didn't write about stuff like that in her diary.  But did it have to be as a punishment?  Or could it have been that A and N were worried that one of the guards might take advantage of M and get the jewels......

Here's a thought......what if Maria's little chemise was being laundered that night?  She wouldn't have put on a wet garment, so it wasn't on her when she was shot.

Q:  DID she have jewels sewn in her clothing when she was shot?  

First she was shot in the leg.  Then she was stabbed repeatedly in the chest with a bayonet.  The bayonet could not pierce her chest.  (jewels?  Quite possibly).  She was "finished off" with a shot to the head.

Now, I don't know much about bayonets.  I know they are sharp.  I know that the guys were stabbing everyone with bayonets.  Maria was the last to die, supposedly.  Was it hard to penetrate her chest because a) she was wearing jewels  b) she had strong chest bones  c) the bayonets were a little dull after smashing thru so many other bones on other people?

Q:  Does it matter?

Yes.  But not for historical purposes.  Just because we are all fascinated by the Romanovs, including the gruesome details of their deaths.  And I include myself in that statement.

[Sarastasia]

I don't know what to believe about her jewels. It still seems strange that she alone wouldn't have had any. I mean, being so precious, wouldn't she have sewn them in or whatever before she left?


Sarastasia

[Sarushka]

Finelly, you've brought up two interesting ideas!

Would Alexandra have refused to let Maria have the jewels because of her relationship (whatever it was) with the guard?  Well, there is some evidence that whatever happened was devastating to N, A, and Olga. [...]  But did it have to be as a punishment?  Or could it have been that A and N were worried that one of the guards might take advantage of M and get the jewels......

After the incident on Maria's birthday, would they have broken up Maria's share of the gems and added them to the other girls' stashes? At that point, after all, I doubt they were viewing the jewelry as body armor, so it's not as if they were condemning Maria to death by reallocating her share. They were more likely looking to preserve their future financial security. I'll have to look and see if Alix mentions "arranging medicines" after that date. If Maria ever had a share of jewels, they must have been rearranged at some point, since nobody found a spare jewel-stuffed chemise lying around after the murder. I know jewelry was found at some point, but not such a quantity loose stones, right? They certainly wouldn't have left anything so valuable behind when the order to get dressed & move came on the night of the killing.

 Maria was the last to die, supposedly.  Was it hard to penetrate her chest because [...] b) she had strong chest bones

As I recall, Maria was the most physically robust of the girls, with a touch of the strength of her grandfather, Alexander III. I believe she could lift Pierre Gilliard off his feet. Even without a shield of jewels, her physical constitution might have been enough to prolong her death.

These two possibilities could work hand in hand. Anybody else think this is a potential scenario, or have I left some gaps?
Sm

[Sarastasia]

Finelly, you've brought up two interesting ideas!

 
After the incident on Maria's birthday, would they have broken up Maria's share of the gems and added them to the other girls' stashes? At that point, after all, I doubt they were viewing the jewelry as body armor, so it's not as if they were condemning Maria to death by reallocating her share. They were more likely looking to preserve their future financial security. I'll have to look and see if Alix mentions "arranging medicines" after that date. If Maria ever had a share of jewels, they must have been rearranged at some point, since nobody found a spare jewel-stuffed chemise lying around after the murder. I know jewelry was found at some point, but not such a quantity loose stones, right? They certainly wouldn't have left anything so valuable behind when the order to get dressed & move came on the night of the killing.
Sm

I believed that there was no resentment in the family about Maria's relationship with the soilder. That is, if you mean the on based in Petrograd (St. Petersburg) who she courted while still at Alexander Palace. If anything, they mearly teased her about it, not disciplined.

Or was there another guard when they were arrested?

Sarastasia