Author Topic: Tatiana & Cleopatra  (Read 44831 times)

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Offline RichC

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Re: Tatiyana & Cleopatra
« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2004, 12:48:16 PM »
Well, based on what I have read, Michelle has an ally in non-other than Queen Victoria who specifically described a number of her relations as "ugly".

Nevertheless, if one compares candid shots of the GD's to Queen Victoria's own family (even the official portraits), the GD's come out pretty well, in my humble opinion.

Janet_W.

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Re: Tatiyana & Cleopatra
« Reply #31 on: October 25, 2004, 01:39:56 PM »
Queen Victoria was obsessed with beauty, always being aware of her own shortcomings in that area. Her feelings on this matter--plus her awareness of her eldest son's preoccupation with pretty young ladies--was one of the foremost reasons why Alexandra of Denmark was chosen to be Princess of Wales. Also, I think that Alix of Hesse's beauty--plus, of course, her earnest character, and the fact that she had been orphaned at such an early age--was a definite factor when it came to her grandmother's particular interest in her.

Michelle

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Re: Tatiyana & Cleopatra
« Reply #32 on: October 25, 2004, 02:30:36 PM »
Wow, I guess my comment really stirred up some people.  I honestly wasn't trying to offend anyone.  That's just how I feel based on the pictures of various ladies back then.  I just don't consider a lot of the women from the olden days as being the height of the history of beauty.  I do however, LOVE their styles and clothes. :D  It's just that I feel the women themselves possessed unattractive faces.  This goes for my own relatives as well!!!  Perhaps some of the not-so-beauties just looked better when their hair was long and flowing.  Some of those hairstyles--I am recalling a previous discussion on one of the threads having to do with OTMA's hair around the time of that portrait from 1916 where their hair looks glued to their heads and isn't at all becoming--weren't very complimentary to some women, however stylish and elegant the hairstyles may have been.

Offline ashanti01

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Re: Tatiyana & Cleopatra
« Reply #33 on: October 25, 2004, 02:53:08 PM »
OTMA were pretty for the standards of thier day. Today I think Marie would be considered a pretty girl, but not so much her sisters. That is just my 2 cents

Arleen_Ristau

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Re: Tatiyana & Cleopatra
« Reply #34 on: October 25, 2004, 03:20:22 PM »
Personally I think that the ONLY true NATURAL BEAUTY of all of the various branchs of royalty was Alexandra in her late teens and early twenties.  She was breathtaking.
To think that OTMA could seduce anyone is rediculous, they were the most innocent of young ladies.
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Offline Martyn

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Re: Tatiyana & Cleopatra
« Reply #35 on: October 30, 2004, 11:54:04 AM »
Well Michelle, if you don't wish to offend people then may I suggest that you modify your language.
And yes we are entitled to express opinions here and everyone has a right to a say, although you seem to think that this is not always the case. Quite why you think that Rskkiya merits being addressed in that fashion escapes me; I can only assume that you are being 'extreme' again...................


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Michelle

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Re: Tatiyana & Cleopatra
« Reply #36 on: October 30, 2004, 10:50:54 PM »
Quote
Well Michelle, if you don't wish to offend people then may I suggest that you modify your language.
And yes we are entitled to express opinions here and everyone has a right to a say, although you seem to think that this is not always the case. Quite why you think that Rskkiya merits being addressed in that fashion escapes me; I can only assume that you are being 'extreme' again...................




HUH? ???

Jane

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Re: Tatiyana & Cleopatra
« Reply #37 on: October 31, 2004, 12:35:23 PM »
In other words, Michelle, think twice, post once.

Offline James_Davidov

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Re: Tatiyana & Cleopatra
« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2004, 06:46:52 AM »
Back to the original point of this forum.........All available sources tell us that Tatiana, especially during her time in captivity was subdued and shy....especially during their last year.  I think that in 'The Fate of the Romanovs' the issues surrounding Maria's flirtation with guards, one in particular, was documented.  Tatiana, who doted and was similar in behavior to Alexandra, was noted to have been particularly reserved around her captors, not as much as olga though, whom it has been suggested began to isolated herself, following an assault by guards whilst travelling from Tobolsk.
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Michelle

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Re: Tatiyana & Cleopatra
« Reply #39 on: November 01, 2004, 12:00:35 PM »
Quote
In other words, Michelle, think twice, post once.


Yes, Jane, I figured that much.  But I have no idea what Martyn's talking about regarding what I'm "addressing" rskkiya as. ???  Apparently only people who think that the majority of women back in the day were absolutely gorgeous are allowed to post here. ::)  And actually, many people I know agree with me, so no, Martyn, I'm not being "extreme."  

Jane

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Re: Tatiyana & Cleopatra
« Reply #40 on: November 01, 2004, 12:43:37 PM »
Quote
Yes, Jane, I figured that much.  But I have no idea what Martyn's talking about regarding what I'm "addressing" rskkiya as. ???  Apparently only people who think that the majority of women back in the day were absolutely gorgeous are allowed to post here. ::)  And actually, many people I know agree with me, so no, Martyn, I'm not being "extreme."  


Actually, Michelle, I think you are missing Martyn's point.

The point is, at least as I see it, is that Martyn was talking about  your language to rskkiya in your post of Oct. 25th, which I have italized below (underlining the portion pertinent to rskkiya):

Posted by: Michelle Posted on: Oct 25th, 2004, 10:46am
Rskkiya, Olga, and Martyn,

I said the MAJORITY of women back then were dogs--meaning ugly, unattractive, sourfaced, mannish looking, what have you.  Yes, there were some exceptions (obviously--i.e. OTMA, Alix, MF, Xenia A., Irina, Ella, although I don't consider the latter a great beauty--and this is not to say that there weren't others).  But many many women I've seen in portraits/pictures etc from back then IN MY OPINION were downright ugly.  This forum is open to opinions the last time I checked--although many times in the past it has actually been to the contrary.  And, no, rskkiya, I will not retract my "dogs" statement just because you don't like it--infact, you don't like anything anyone says that could undermine your own thoughts.  Do you think I care if you consider my sayings immature?  Even though I consider you a sourpuss I am quite sure you don't give a d***n.


Looking at this objectively, your statement to rskkiya is offensive, insulting, and rude.  But as you state yourself, you clearly don't care if anyone considers you immature.  

Extremity is any manifestation is seldom a good thing.  I hope that, with age, wisdom will come for you.

Edited to add:  this is the end of the discussion as far as I am concerned.  My apologies to others on this thread for drawing it further off topic.  I am vacating the thread forthwith.



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Jane »

rskkiya

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Re: Tatiyana & Cleopatra
« Reply #41 on: November 02, 2004, 10:42:20 AM »
Quote
Back to the original point of this forum.........All available sources tell us that Tatiana, especially during her time in captivity was subdued and shy....especially during their last year.  I think that in 'The Fate of the Romanovs' the issues surrounding Maria's flirtation with guards, one in particular, was documented.  Tatiana, who doted and was similar in behavior to Alexandra, was noted to have been particularly reserved around her captors, not as much as olga though, whom it has been suggested began to isolated herself, following an assault by guards whilst travelling from Tobolsk.


This is a very good point.
  But I am still unconvinced that Tatiana was in any way any kind of Cleopatera/Mata Hari  figure -- I believe that any flirtation would have been of the most innocent sort.
rskkiya

Michelle

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Re: Tatiyana & Cleopatra
« Reply #42 on: November 02, 2004, 11:06:56 AM »
Quote

Actually, Michelle, I think you are missing Martyn's point.

The point is, at least as I see it, is that Martyn was talking about  your language to rskkiya in your post of Oct. 25th, which I have italized below (underlining the portion pertinent to rskkiya):

Posted by: Michelle Posted on: Oct 25th, 2004, 10:46am
Rskkiya, Olga, and Martyn,
 
I said the MAJORITY of women back then were dogs--meaning ugly, unattractive, sourfaced, mannish looking, what have you.  Yes, there were some exceptions (obviously--i.e. OTMA, Alix, MF, Xenia A., Irina, Ella, although I don't consider the latter a great beauty--and this is not to say that there weren't others).  But many many women I've seen in portraits/pictures etc from back then IN MY OPINION were downright ugly.  This forum is open to opinions the last time I checked--although many times in the past it has actually been to the contrary.  And, no, rskkiya, I will not retract my "dogs" statement just because you don't like it--infact, you don't like anything anyone says that could undermine your own thoughts.  Do you think I care if you consider my sayings immature?  Even though I consider you a sourpuss I am quite sure you don't give a d***n.


Looking at this objectively, your statement to rskkiya is offensive, insulting, and rude.  But as you state yourself, you clearly don't care if anyone considers you immature.  

Extremity is any manifestation is seldom a good thing.  I hope that, with age, wisdom will come for you.

Edited to add:  this is the end of the discussion as far as I am concerned.  My apologies to others on this thread for drawing it further off topic.  I am vacating the thread forthwith.





Well thank you for clarifying that for me.  I honestly hadn't thought anymore about it, and infact totally forgot about it.  I'm sorry but that's how I feel, and I was trying to make a point about why anyone should care that I think most of the women were dogs, and for whatever reason you all will certainly loathe me for this statement (which I had also pointed out that even in pictures of MY OWN FAMILY, I ADMIT, the women were butt ugly!) I'm sure and which is obvious.  And I accept that.  Sometimes that's what happens when one speaks his/her mind.  And yes, I find rskkiya to be someone who needs some real definite lightening up.  But that doesn't mean she has to take my opinion to heart and do anything about it.  She can go on being unpleasant for some posters (and I assure you, I am NOT the only one who believes this) because that's her right to be a free American--or Britan I suppose she is.  There are a number of people on here who do actually think that I have wisdom beyond my years (dicounting, of course, the whole dogs thing LOL::)).  

rskkiya

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Re: Tatiyana & Cleopatra
« Reply #43 on: November 02, 2004, 11:10:58 AM »
Michelle PLEASE!

Might we get back on topic?




rskkiya
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by rskkiya »

Offline Forum Admin

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Re: Tatiyana & Cleopatra
« Reply #44 on: November 02, 2004, 11:29:34 AM »
Society's images of beauty change drastically with time. It is absolutely impossible to impose 21st notions of beauty upon 19th century women. 21st cent. fashion dictates impossibly thin, with long legs and high cheeckbones.
Such women in the 19th century would have been considered the poorest class, since they clearly couldn't afford to eat. Even beauty standards between early and late 19th century were different. By the end of the 19th, impossibly tight waists with big hips (better for childbearing) was the fashion..SO PLEASE, leave modern beauty standards out of it. and Please, stay on topic.