New study questions identity of Romanov bones

[AGRBear]

So, all of this discussion has been over a finger which was thought to be GD Elisabeth, the sister of Tsarina Alexandra.

The severed finger wasn't Elisabeth's, according to the DNA not matching Alexandra's.

Might it be her friend [Vera or Varvara, I think her name was, a nun] or  was the finger someone's who wasn't found in the pit?  Any other tests been made to identify the owner?

AGRBear

PS  I had to go over to the thread which had the list of shooters to remember who else was in the pit with Elisabeth and they were:
The list:
Grand Duchess Elisabeth Fedorovna
Grand Duke Konstantine's three sons:  Ioann, Konstantine and
          Igor
Prince Vladimir Pavelovich Paley
Grand Duke Sergi Mikhailovich
Nun - known as Barbara [ Varvara]

[Helen_Azar]

 
Might it be her friend [Vera or Varvara, I think her name was, a nun] or  was the finger someone's who wasn't found in the pit?  Any other tests been made to identify the owner?
 

Bear, if you read our article, you will have the answer to this question and some others you posed here.

So, all of this discussion has been over a finger which was thought to be GD Elisabeth, the sister of Tsarina Alexandra.

The severed finger wasn't Elisabeth's, according to the DNA not matching Alexandra's.
 

Actually the theory is that the finger cannot belong to Elizabeth not because it didn't match Alexandra's DNA, but because it didn't match Prince Philip's DNA.

[AGRBear]

Not everyone reads the DNA thread, so, I thought I'd talk a little about it here, too.

For a more complete answer go on over and take a look.  You might find it interesting.

AGRBear

[lexi4]

Helen & Belochka
Thank you so much for publishing your article on this site. I learned so much from all the posts on this thread. I am not a scientist, but I could follow your DNA discussion without a problem. I think that is a testament to your writing. I will probably read this all again because I am sure I didn't absorb it all with only one reading. This is exactly the kind of discussion I was hoping to find when I joined the Palace. It made me think, gave me some things to add to my reading list and helped me put to rest any questions I had about what happened to the IF. Thank you.

[Elizabeth]

I now this thread hasn't been "active" for a few months, but now that I'm on the board, I have some questions (especially about GD "Elizabeth" or the "finger").  Also, I know one of the posts directed the individual to "the article," but I can't seem to locate it.

1.  First of all, was there evidence that the finger was taken off of GD Elizabeth's hand (either in the mine or as a relic).  Interestingly (and it might already have been discussed), but her "hand" was traveling around Russia last year to be venerated by the faithful.

2.  Also, re: the discussions about if that is "really" GD Elizabeth in the grave on the Mount of Olives, I recall reading in ONE of my many books on the IF that the coffin eventually found its way to Cairo, where it was met by one of Elizabeth's and Alexandra's sisters (Irene maybe?), who wrote to their brother, Ernie.  In her letter to him, she said something (and I'm paraphrasing here) that "her body was not corrupted, and it looked as if she were sleeping."  Surely, her own SISTER would have "seen" the difference between her own sister and the nun, Barbara?

Just some thoughts . . .

E--

[Elisabeth]

2.  Also, re: the discussions about if that is "really" GD Elizabeth in the grave on the Mount of Olives, I recall reading in ONE of my many books on the IF that the coffin eventually found its way to Cairo, where it was met by one of Elizabeth's and Alexandra's sisters (Irene maybe?), who wrote to their brother, Ernie.  In her letter to him, she said something (and I'm paraphrasing here) that "her body was not corrupted, and it looked as if she were sleeping."  Surely, her own SISTER would have "seen" the difference between her own sister and the nun, Barbara?

The only problem with this scenario is that the photographs of the corpses at Alapaievsk by White investigators clearly show that the remains of both Elizabeth and Sister Barbara were grotesquely swollen (i.e., corrupt, please forgive me for saying so) beyond any immediate or easy recognition.

It begs the question whether the corpse buried at the Mount of Olives is really Elizabeth's or that of someone else.

[Robert_Hall]

So much that has been written about Ella is so devotional, emotional and reverential romanticism it is hard to take it objectively.

[Elizabeth]

I understand your point, Robert (in fact, it's a VERY IMPORTANT point).

However, my concern is that we're talking about someone who has been sainted by both ROCOR and the Russian Orthodox Church (in Russia), and I thought they were a little "hesitant" about granting sainthood to bones they "weren't really sure" were the real thing (the IF's remains come instantly to mind).  

If there were only TWO women in the mine who were killed, then that narrows it down considerably, in that ONE of them has to be Elizabeth (maybe it's just not the one in the coffin marked with her name).  But, again, I would have thought the Church would have checked that out.

Nevertheless, it's a fascinating (but disturbing) twist.

E--

[etonexile]

3..."3" independant testing labs show that the remains of the persons found in Siberia are related to a known relation of the IF...Prince Philip...these are the type of labs which routinely find the killers of children by a single hair...or release a person from death row after 30 years because the DNA was not a match....These labs are serious,scientific organizations...3..."3"...

[Belochka]

The only problem with this scenario is that the photographs of the corpses at Alapaievsk by White investigators clearly show that the remains of both Elizabeth and Sister Barbara were grotesquely swollen (i.e., corrupt, please forgive me for saying so) beyond any immediate or easy recognition.

Unfortunately the images in O'Conor's book appear to be touched up. In my possession there is a set of clear images of their remains that appeared in a fairly recently published Russian source (2000).

The photograph labelled as G.D. Elizaveta Fedorovna clearly shows that her face was covered by a cloth. This feature is not clear in the translated O'Conor book (see Image # 137 between pp 226-231). The chin is exposed and does appear somewhat decomposed.

The right hand is also mostly covered by a small piece of cloth - which obscures the real position of the hand. Only segments of two digits are exposed - whether the hand is closed or open is difficult to discern. Her left hand is also obscured by a similar small piece of cloth, but there are two digits clearly protruding.   

From a modern investigative perspective it is unfortunate that the purported photograph of Ella reveals the least amount of forensic detail, when compared to the other series of photographs.

The second female body was photographed without additional coverings postmortem.

Each body photographed at the crime scene does demonstrate varying degrees of decomposition.

[lexi4]

Belochka,
Which book do you have?

[Belochka]

Belochka,
Which book do you have?

Hi lexi4,

It is not a book, but a Russian periodical called RODINA, 2000/8 in an article titled Poslednii Marshrut [Final Route] by Luidmila Likova, pp 2 - 5

[LayLay]

interesting

[Belochka]

So much that has been written about Ella is so devotional, emotional and reverential romanticism it is hard to take it objectively.

I agree with you Robert.

If these elements were set aside in the interests of genuine forensic evaluation, we could learn the truth about the state of "Ella's" remains.