Alexandra and her Health Part 1

[Sarai_Porretta]

Hi Sarai!
I too would like to find out much more about this accident, which I have only seen mentioned in two biographies of the Empress. It certainly happened one day in January, and i have researched into it, and found that it did indeed take place in Darmstadt, therefore most likely at the Neues Palais garden, but i would still be most grateful if this could be confirmed. (The Hessian children did play also in the Prinz-Emil-Garten, but I have only read accounts of the elder sisters playing there, and the Neues Palais seems more feasible). One author even suggested the accident happened because the children's nurse was not overseeing them at that moment. Alix appears to have been chasing her two elder siblings, who ran across an area where seedlings were growing under glass. Another account calls them "high forcing frames". Princess Irene and Prince Ernst Ludwig ran over them, "treading only on the stone". Alix followed and tried to run over them but crashed right through them. She was badly cut, blood was "pouring" from the cuts in her legs and she screamed "in pain and fear". She is said to have borne the scars of this accident all her life. In a way these scars were perhaps representative of how wounded she was feeling inside, how raw, after her beloved mother's death. I have checked Ernst Ludwig's memoirs but he does not mention the incident. One of the accounts i used was Baroness Buxhoeveden's extremely detailed book. She stated that the Empress personally communicated to her the details about her childhood which she subsequently wrote of, so one can only presume Alix told her of this accident herself.

Elisa, thank you so much for these details! You mention you found these details in two biographies, one being that of Baroness Buxhoeveden. Which was the other?

It is so sad that poor little girl was wounded so awfully especially just after her mother's death. It sounds like she was just trying to be a child again, despite the mourning, chasing after her siblings, and to have this traumatizing event happen must have been terrible for her. It must have felt as if she couldn't get over the hurt no matter what she did.

[Sarai_Porretta]

There is a little passage in Lili Dehn's book which I find especially moving. Alix was telling her about when she cried at the marriage of her brother in 1894. "I cried when i thought of my mother; this was the first festival since her death. I seemed to see her everywhere.."

What a touching passage, indeed! I am always interested in reading about the times when Alix mentioned her mother, as I have read so little about that. Of course she must have always been in her heart and thoughts, and I know she had a large painting of her mother hanging at the Alexander Palace, but I haven't read too many occasions when she was heard to mention her mother, especially as an adult, other than perhaps at the anniversaries of her death.

[Sarai_Porretta]

I completely agree Sarai! The passages in Alix' letters to her grandmother Queen Victoria which mention this are very moving to read, there are many references to Alice, saying that the Queen had been like a mother "Since beloved Mama died". There are also other links which i find deeply touching - Alix often used to send postcards to her close friends, one exists of the Alice-Denkmall in Darmstadt which the ladies of the town had erected to the memory of her mother in 1912. I also found out that Alix also possessed in her library at Tsarskoe Selo the wonderful book of letters that her mother wrote to Queen Victoria. From peering at one of the engravings on he walls in one of the photographs of her rooms in the Alexander Palace, i would also say that on one is a framed picture of the Neues Mausoleum where her parents are both resting with her beloved little brother and sister. Alix also possessed many books that once belonged to her mother, some with signiatures in, in her Tsarskoe library.

Thanks for pointing out those other instances when Alix mentioned her mother. I figured that Alice's daughters owned that book of her letters, as it was also dedicated to them, but it's good to know for sure. I have a copy of that book and it's nice to know that Alix read the same book.

[Belochka]

HI Everyone,

In view of the intense interest that has developed over the last few days, discussing Alexandra's possible medical problems and how they might have affected her reaction to the Abdication, I thought it might be better to separate out the discussion a little further.

We are aware that Alexandra was affected by a psychiatric condition, but how did the condition affect her behavior towards the Court and her own family?

Are there any other medical disorders which may have affected her?

I invite any discussion which you may care to offer.

Thanks in anticipation,

Belochka  

[lexi4]

great! Why don't we start with the obvious one, hysteria.
Here is a definition I found: Definition:
The conversion of emotional distress or unconscious conflict into a physical symptom. It is one of the general class of Somatoform disorders.


Hysterical neurosis

Causes, incidence, and risk factors:
The symptom onset of this disorder is usually very sudden and follows a stressful experience. The loss of function may symbolize the underlying conflict associated with it. Psychodynamic theory interprets the cause of the symptoms as a defense mechanism that absorbs and neutralizes the anxiety generated by an unacceptable impulse or wish. Risk factors include a history of histrionic personality disorder or dependent personality disorder.
Source: University of Maryland web site

[Belochka]

Hi Lexi4,

I applaud your prompt enthusiasm!

Could you please provide a direct link to the U. Maryland site.

Thanks

How do you believe that the Hysteria may have affected her behavior towards her family?

Do you believe she demonstrated any insecurities because of her disassociative behavior?

[lexi4]

I should have posted the link! DUH! I will try to find it again. As for the other questions, I will answer them when I have had more time to really reflect more on the topic. I don't want to look too dumb.  

[Belochka]

Lexi4,

All questions are accepted provided they pertain to this topic.

Please remember no question should be considered "dumb".

I trust that no one will feel that this topic is too difficult to approach.

Everone is warmly welcome.

[Helen]

This subject has already been discussed elsewhere. But if it is to be repeated here: could this discussion please start with references to testimonies by two or three independent medical experts of undisputed reputation who personally diagnosed Alexandra as suffering from hysteria?

[Belochka]

Thank you for your posting Helen,

This thread has been set up to bring together all discussions about Alexandra's medical status. It also provides for an additional expansion, whereby we can discuss how her pathologies affected those around her.

Perhaps you care to provide us here with "testimonies by two or three independent medical experts of undisputed reputation who personally diagnosed Alexandra as suffering from hysteria"?  

The intensity of your concern is noted. Thank you.

[bluetoria]

I agree with you, Helen. Without in any way wishing to dismiss the testimony of the reputable Doctor Botkin or the skill of Russian psychiatrists of the time, or all the learned information presented on the other thread, I have a serious question. It returns to my objection to labelling the Empress. If at some point in my life I am depressed, does that make me 'depressive.' If at some point in am overwrought & rant & rave (even if that continues for some time) does that make me 'hysteric'? Having worked with psychiatric patients I feel very strongly about this because I feel people are too easily labelled. If a person is suffering at some point from leprosy...are they always to be seen as a leper...a person suffering from a stomach upset, always to be seen as a 'gastric patient.' This is where I am concerned about labelling Alexandra. At some point she may have (& did) behave in a hysterical fashion...at some point she behaved in a paranoid fashion, but she was not always hysteric, paranoid or any other label, was she? Anymore than the rest of us.

[ChristineM]

I agree with Helen and bluetoria - labels are dangerous... and they STICK.   It is worth bearing this in mind.

I also agree this is an area worthy of discussion, if for no other reason but in endeavour to sift out fact from fiction.  

Alexandra was a victim.   And, in the end, an ultimate victim.   Not to be overlooked, she was also the victim of Bolshevik propaganda.

Perhaps the best place to begin with this thread is just there - at the beginning.  

The relationship between her parents.   Her mother's own 'problems' - could there be a legacy there?  

The sudden death of her little brother and the overwhelming 'Victorian' morbidity which ensued.  

The death of her little sister immediately followed by that of her beloved mother.   The subsequent imposed destruction of so many remaining physical securities - known and loved, clothes, toys, books, cards, letters and photographs.   She watched these burn.   The reactive, overbearing grief of her grandmother.   The fact that a once 'Sunny' and smiling child, seldom smiled again.  

Brought up by a single parent - her father!  

The youngest of four sisters.
.
Were the lacerations of both her legs significant in her, later, never-ending back and leg problems?

A few thoughts...

tsaria  

[Belochka]

Additionally, for me, shutting down a topic is like burning books, something the Germans did under Hitler nearly 70 years ago.  It is just anti-knowledge and anti-learning.

Sasha,

It is indeed unfortunate that there is some dissent emerging so early in the life of this thread, however the purpose of this thread is to enable serious discussion.
_____________________________________________
I would like to declare myself here, for those posters who may not be aware of my professional background. I am a qualified Medical Scientist with over twenty five years research experience in Pathology. Despite my progression into the legal sphere, I have not neglected my first vocation.
_____________________________________________

As you have noted elsewhere, an excellent point to begin will be the confirmed etyiological and pathological diagnosis of the Empress's own private physician of many years, Dr. E. Botkin, of acute hysteria.

The etiology and clinical diagnosis of Hysteria would be an excellent starting point.

I would suggest that we after consider this initial definition of ... "acute hysteria" .... with particular emphasis .... as it would have been known in the late 19th century and early 20th century, as Dr. Botkin would have done, and then as we understand today it.

Agreed, this is the ideal approach to follow ....

Additionally, if there are any pathogenesistetic features that manifested themselves in the Empress's illness, we should also consider those.

Yes this is a very important consideration to follow through ...

we should additionally consider whether any homeopathic methods were prescribed .... and whether or not they would have appeared to aggravate or diminish the present psychosis ...

If we do find that complimentary remedies were used to supplement her treatment, it would be interesting to discuss its efficacy.

furthermore, we should consider what disassociative phenomenae of the Empress's psychosis manifested themselves clinically and to outside observers and to what degree they manifested themselves ...

Agreed with this next phase in discussions. This phase will hopefully introduce what unusual interactions Alexandra experienced within the Court, and how those interactions were perceived by those around her.

... what conversion symptoms of the illness were present and whether or not they were either clinically recorded and/or noted or noted and observed by outside third parties, unaware of the pathological state of the Empress

e.g. Ambassador Paleologue documented a number of key observations which shall prove useful for our developing diagnosis.

and finally whether there was any organic origin of the illness in the case of this particular patient or was the origin one of severe trauma.

This phase in our discussion should provide us with a summation of our general findings. At this point we should all have reasonable confidence in forming an opinion as to whether Alexandra did indeed suffer from Hysteria or something entirely overlooked.

.... consider whether the added presence in prescribed medicines then in use of considerable doses of controlled substances, i.e., cocaine, would have aggravated a condition of acute hysteria.

I am sure that this particular discussion will provide some lively discussion!

Sasha,

Thank you very much for taking so much time and effort to work out a suitable guide which we can all follow.

Belochka  

[bluetoria]

Notwithstanding what would appear to be the strenuous objections of the various posteresses, I, for one, and I am sure many others, shall be pleased to continue with this topic.

After all, there many, many topics on this Board which are not to the liking of the some or of the others, and frankly, if the Administrators were to shut down every topic that displeased any given individual, I am sure that there would no topics left and by consequence no Board.

Additionally, for me, shutting down a topic is like burning books, something the Germans did under Hitler nearly 70 years ago.  It is just anti-knowledge and anti-learning.

As Lincoln said "You can please some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time, but never all of the people all of the time."  And as Louis XIV said, "Que la fete continue..."

 

Alex, if this refers to my post - or to Helen's - I consider it a little unfair. No one has raised any 'strenuous objections' to the thread, nor suggested for a moment that it should be closed. Nor has anyone come anywhere near to suggesting anything like 'burning books.'

Belochka is aware, I am sure, that I have very great respect and admiration for her vast knowledge in medical fields and in Russian history. I have learned a great deal from her posts and hope to continue to do so. In order to learn, however, it is necessary to ask questions and express opinions.

Helen asked for independent scientific opinions. I stated that I think there is a danger of labelling people. Is that not simply continuing a fair discussion? Surely in a discussion we are permitted to disagree - after all that is the point of a discussion.

I do not think you intend it to be said in this way, but your tone suggests that you are becoming the arbiter of who can and who cannot post on these threads. Perhaps it is a misunderstanding in language? I hope so for I should like to continue this fairly.

[Belochka]

I agree with Helen and bluetoria - labels are dangerous... and they STICK.   It is worth bearing this in mind.

I also agree this is an area worthy of discussion, if for no other reason but in endeavour to sift out fact from fiction.  

Tsaria thank you so much for your extremely positive attitude!

You have offered excellent informed suggestions, and have thankfully provided the ideal starting point ... Alexandra's parents.

I believe that it is vital to first describe what interpersonal relationships Alexandra's parents expressed within the family unit ... how each member was affected by the death of Alexandra's mother and her young brother from hemophilia and other medical problems within the family unit ... her seclusion from the immediate family ... etc. and including a follow-up of her developmental years in England.

Each phase in her life from birth to her death carried much trauma. How each of these phases affected her outlook on life and what external influences impacted upon her psyche; including how she perceived her 'self', will assist us to begin to understand her developing emotional state.

In keeping with bluetoria's and tsaria's suggestion, we shall not hand out any sticky labels.