Author Topic: Alexandra and her Health Part 1  (Read 243664 times)

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Offline Belochka

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Re: Alexandra and her Health
« Reply #270 on: August 24, 2005, 08:26:01 AM »
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 I will assist you all I can in this topic  


A special thank you Sasha for your generous offer of assistance! ;D

Belochka  ;D


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Offline Belochka

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Re: Alexandra and her Health
« Reply #271 on: August 24, 2005, 10:22:46 AM »
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Belochka,
 And that is exactly my "problem" with this thread: I do not think people have been able to provide such references in other threads in which this topic was discussed.

... we can only guess about the exact nature and severity of any physical and/or phycological conditions Alexandra may have suffered from, and no hard conclusions on the impact of such problems on the people around her can be drawn. Without proper diagnoses, a discussion like this may provide useful information on definitions of a variety of medical conditions, but can hardly be more than tabloid gossip as far as Alexandra is concerned. I think she deserves better. Any human being would deserve better.


Hi Helen,

This thread has only been initiated a few hours ago, and may I suggest that you have not given enough time for this thread to develop to reach your conclusions.

There is documentation available in the Russian language, which perhaps was the problem that you experienced in the past. You must consider that not everything has been made available in the English language. We are afterall dealing here in the main, with the Russian Imperial Family.

A definitive clinical diagnosis was provided by Dr. E. Botkin, in the capacity as Alexandra's primary physician. In addition to his expertise, there are two more independent psychiatric assessments made available.  

Each report presented similar conclusions. However the patient did not desire to pursue with the suggested treatment. Her denial is in itself an interesting element worthy of our discussion.

It is your decision to deny or accept these facts which I have offered.

Our exercise here is a hypothetical one. Therefore on a balance of probabilities we hope to come up with some informed structured concepts. It would be inappropriate on this forum to claim that our results will be conclusive.

It is anticipated that this exercise will be stimulating for all who wish to participate. The choice is yours as to whether you wish to contribute something useful to our discussions.

However if you consider that we are engaging in "tabloid gossip" - then perhaps this discussion may not suit you.

Belochka
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Belochka »


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Offline ChristineM

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Re: Alexandra and her Health
« Reply #272 on: August 24, 2005, 11:45:07 AM »
There was a huge gulf between Princess Alice and her husband - certainly intellectually.   Alice was not slow in reminding Louis of this.   She began a tradition (one of many) - maintained by her daugher, Alix.   When Louis went off to war, she bombarded him daily with letters.   The poor man made an effort to respond, but somehow this was never quite good enough for Alice.   I recall reading where she wrote in one letter to the effect - 'Just write.   It doesn't matter what... rubbish will do.'  

Of course, there was also the fact they were constantly 'hard up' - by royal standards.   It was Alice' mother, Queen Victoria, not her husband, who provided the capital for their new home in Darmstadt.   When Louis inherited the title and Alice became Grand Duchess and first lady, what did she do whenever she felt, as frequently she did, 'overwhelmed'?...   She took to her bed.  

Tensions such as these must have manifested themselves within the family unit.   Why were the other siblings apparently less affected than Alicky?   Possibly they were blessed with less sensitive, better to say, different, natures.  

Also, I think we must keep in mind one of Princess Alice' major influences.   Dr Strauss.   Did he pave the way for other gentlemen who, decades later, entered and impinged their influences on the thoughts and life of her daughter?

Louis must have felt completely out of his depth in the company of a wife who, for example, played four hands, one piano with no lesser mortal than Johannes Brahmns.

From earlist childhood, Alix, in common with her sisters, was urged to 'serve'.   Sewing = 'working'.   At a very early age Alix was introduced to those 'in need' and to the whole concept of service.

However, I do feel the constant atmosphere of doom and gloom must have left an indelible mark.   On the family's last holiday together - probably their one and only 'true' holiday of sand and sandcastles:  paddling and skimming stones:  donkey rides along the beach - even this was blighted by tragedy.  

A Thames pleasure paddle steamer - Princess Alice - named in Alice' honour, sank swiftly in the river with huge loss of life.  

Alice despaired.   Not only for those who lost their lives and for their loved ones.   She saw this as an omen.   She believed it presaged disaster and, with her fateful nature, probably regarded it as a presentiment of her own early death.   She was correct.   The Thames tragedy occured in September.   By December, she was dead.  

Atmospheres and influences such as those outlined above, must have left a profound mark on the psyche of the young, troubled, lonely, insecure 'Sunny'.

It is my contention that Alexandra Feodorovna strove to follow in her, undoubtedly talented, caring and gifted mother's footsteps... to her own detriment.   She wanted to be the mother she had lost.  

I await with interest the opinions of others.

tsaria

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by tsaria »

Val289

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Re: Alexandra and her Health
« Reply #273 on: August 24, 2005, 12:04:16 PM »
tsaria - I couldn't agree with you more........  Thank you for your insight.  I think you've really described the family unit that Alix grew up in very accurately, and how the relations between her, and her family (esp. her mother) affected her as a child and later, as a woman.  I never even thought to take into account Dr. Strauss and how that relationship with Alice might have paved the way for Alix's later relationship with Rasputin.  You've given us a lot to think about :)

Offline Tsarfan

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Re: Alexandra and her Health
« Reply #274 on: August 24, 2005, 01:11:00 PM »
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And that is exactly my "problem" with this thread: I do not think people have been able to provide such references in other threads in which this topic was discussed. However, if such diagnoses are not available, we can only guess about the exact nature and severity of any physical and/or phycological conditions Alexandra may have suffered from, and no hard conclusions on the impact of such problems on the people around her can be drawn. Without proper diagnoses, a discussion like this may provide useful information on definitions of a variety of medical conditions, but can hardly be more than tabloid gossip as far as Alexandra is concerned. I think she deserves better. Any human being would deserve better.


I find it interesting that there have been endless postings on this board about what a saint Alexandra is, about how she is sitting in heaven this very minute, about how people pray to her and get their prayers answered, about how they have seen her by their sick beds, etc.

Shouldn't you have asked that the same standard of expert analysis and proof be applied to those discussions?

As long as we all recognize the hazards of lay people trying to diagnose a long-dead personality, I see no harm in approaching this topic as an intellectual puzzle.

If Alexandra's really sitting in heaven in a state of bliss, I cannot imagine this would faze her in the least.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Tsarfan »

Offline Tsarfan

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Re: Alexandra and her Health
« Reply #275 on: August 24, 2005, 01:34:08 PM »
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Apparently, an open and honest discussion is neither possible nor welcome.


How true.  Every time anyone starts a discussion that might cast Alexandra in a negative light, you go on the attack to try to shut the discussion down with all your protestations about the need for rigorous scholarship.

It would seem a laudable sentiment had I not actually read some of your posts on other threads and seen how quickly academic rigor goes out the door when it comes to adoration of the sainted Alexandra.

And Nazis?  What in the world are you talking about?

Offline ChristineM

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Re: Alexandra and her Health
« Reply #276 on: August 24, 2005, 02:04:22 PM »
Dear Helen

I think this rather excellent thread got off on the wrong foot with perhaps a touch too much enthusiasm.   Believe me, I understand and, to an extent, share your reservations.   However I do believe there are facets to Alexandra's character which have not yet been fully explored anywhere.   Your contribution to this thread is not just desired, it is essential.  

Please put the unfortunate 'kick-off' behind and get on with helping to illuminate unanswered, and, I believe, heretofore unasked questions.

Poor old cynical Tsarfan.   I don't know about anyone else, but I am so relieved not to live in that head.   'TSARFAN'.   The user name itself presents a conundrum.   Does it conceal a keen sense of humour?   Is it an exercise in self-mockery?   Could it possibly conceal a desire to obfuscate his true persuasions?   Surely he doesn't feel in any way intellectually or academically compromised as his post could suggest?   Only Tsarfan can enlighten us.

Thank you AlexP.   Obviously I cannot really say with even the slightest degree of certainty, but I do feel that Alexandra's 'hysteria' problems could well have sprung from seeds sown before her birth.   Add to those the inevitable problems and traumas - to which we are not privy - experienced during infancy and childhood and what role these might have played, no-one can say.  

Of one thing I am certain, there are people today who have benefitted from lifelong 'therapy' who were not exposed to the kind of mental assault experienced by Alix during her formative years.   Against that, of course, there are people who have survived much worse - apparently unscathed.

An answer may lie in an observation made by her sister, Ella.   She once said that it was as possible to change one's character as it was to change the colour of one's eyes.

tsaria    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by tsaria »

Offline Rosamund

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Re: Alexandra and her Health
« Reply #277 on: August 24, 2005, 02:54:35 PM »
With some trepidation I make my contribution.

When considering Alix's health problems I think her genetics are important. Both the Prince Consort and Princess Alice are described as aging early in appearance.  Both complained about a variety of ailments. The health of relatives could be examined as well as psychological causes of her illnesses.  

I will remove this if it offends anyone.  

Offline CountessKate

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Re: Alexandra and her Health
« Reply #278 on: August 24, 2005, 03:20:37 PM »
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When considering Alix's health problems I think her genetics are important. Both the Prince Consort and Princess Alice are described as aging early in appearance.  Both complained about a variety of ailments. The health of relatives could be examined as well as psychological causes of her illnesses.


I believe Rosamund has made an excellent point.  I have been re-reading John Rohl, Martin Warren and David Hunt's 'Purple Secret' in which they suggest Alix suffered from porphyria, a metabolic disease inherited probably through Princess Alice and her ancestors descended from Mary Stuart.  Perhaps a physical condition might explain a variety of mental problems as well?

Offline Tsarfan

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Re: Alexandra and her Health
« Reply #279 on: August 24, 2005, 03:26:30 PM »
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Poor old cynical Tsarfan.   I don't know about anyone else, but I am so relieved not to live in that head.   'TSARFAN'.   The user name itself presents a conundrum.   Does it conceal a keen sense of humour?   Is it an exercise in self-mockery?   Could it possibly conceal a desire to obfuscate his true persuasions?   Surely he doesn't feel in any way intellectually or academically compromised as his post could suggest?   Only Tsarfan can enlighten us.


There were many other tsars (and tsarinas) besides Nicholas, and some of them were magnificent representatives of a fascinating institution.  I can be a fan of the breed without being enamored of its last pitiful examples.

Cynical?  Not really.  I just get tired of the "Board Nannies" who periodically troop out to set the rest of us straight about our shoddy academic standards, our poor breeding, our inappropriate capitalization conventions, our inarticulate thoughts.

Challenge points people make if you will . . . but challenge the points, not the people.  That's the lifeblood of this board.  But don't try to bully people off the board by attacking their credentials, their intellects, or their means of expression.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Tsarfan »

Offline Rosamund

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Re: Alexandra and her Health
« Reply #280 on: August 24, 2005, 03:47:21 PM »
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I believe Rosamund has made an excellent point.  I have been re-reading John Rohl, Martin Warren and David Hunt's 'Purple Secret' in which they suggest Alix suffered from porphyria, a metabolic disease inherited probably through Princess Alice and her ancestors descended from Mary Stuart.  Perhaps a physical condition might explain a variety of mental problems as well?


Thank you for your interest Caroline.  Like you I have read that book more than once.  I was also thinking about 'shyness', several of the family have been labelled 'shy'.  Is there a shyness gene?  



Offline Georgiy

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Re: Alexandra and her Health
« Reply #281 on: August 24, 2005, 04:51:05 PM »
I read on the other thread about how there was nothing wrong with the Empress's heart, which no doubt is true. However when a patient thinks her heart has problems, the slightest twinge or muscle pain in that area can lead to all kinds of (self-inflicted as it were) palpitations, brethlessness etc, all through anxiety. Last year for some reason, I kept on feeling a tightness and pain in the chest. The more I dwelt on it, if I had a pain there, I would be reduced to sitting down, feeling breathless etc. I thought there could well be something wrong with me, not least because one time a doctor said she thought she heard a murmur. Anyway, it turns out that what was happening was physically in the muscles in my chest, but the location was leading me to think it was my heart, and the anxiety over that caused the other symptoms. I still get twinges now and then in that area, but don't worry about it now.

The problem witht he Empress is that she did worry. No one could tell her it was mostly in her head, because to her, the symproms and feelings were all to real. Now, I don't know if clinically there is a difference or not, but could it be likely that rather than hysteria, her problems were actually anxiety?

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Re: Alexandra and her Health
« Reply #282 on: August 24, 2005, 08:57:42 PM »
tsaria  I have read all of postings on this thread and the one you made at 12:45pm (my time) has me dusting off all of the references that I have on Princess Alice and her family.

Going back to to the fact that Alice, before her daughter Alix, "was married behind a coffin."  Didn't her wedding take place just after the death of Albert.  Wasn't everyone including the Queen in deepest mourning?

I think you were very clear in setting up a thread point which we should all get back to.

I for one, am excited to examine this point of view from the beginning and I believe it will go back to before Alice's marriage to an examination of her growing years and her outlook on life.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Alixz »

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Re: Alexandra and her Health
« Reply #283 on: August 25, 2005, 12:00:13 AM »
Since I'm told there are no stupid questions, hear goes:
sorry to throw this into the fray, and it may mean nothing at all, but, I'll ask anyway. Does anyone know if HIHA used makeup? I know during those years, it was lead based. I wonder if that would add to any type of medical issues, including with any medications, etc. she was taking?

Tania

Alixz

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Re: Alexandra and her Health
« Reply #284 on: August 25, 2005, 12:14:16 AM »
I remember once reading that Queen Alexandra used "porcelan" on her face as make-up.  I don't know what it was made of, but I will do research.

Now Alix was much younger than her Aunt, so perhaps would not have gone to that extent, but makeup could have been a factor (Max Factor  ;D).

We should check it out.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Alixz »