Author Topic: Alexandra and her Health Part 1  (Read 243663 times)

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Offline Belochka

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Re: Alexandra and her Health
« Reply #285 on: August 25, 2005, 12:59:54 AM »
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As a Doctor of Medicine and as a Christian, I do not think there is anything negative in asking for first-hand evidence by independent medical experts. This type of evidence is not only required from an academic point of view, but also because we are still discussing a human being who deserves our respect as such. It is sad that this simple request is answered by sarcasm and far-fetched, irrelevant references to Nazis. Apparently, an open and honest discussion is neither possible nor welcome.


Helen,

It appears that you have your own preference as to how this thread should proceed. May I suggest that you take the initiative and apply a more competant academic approach elsewhere?

Your persistant prouncements add NOTHING academic to this thread.

Perhaps you as a colleague should offer respect and support to the topic under discussion.

If you are unable to offer your own academic expertise then please find another venue to vent your spleen.

Thank you.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Belochka »


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Re: Alexandra and her Health
« Reply #286 on: August 25, 2005, 01:20:14 AM »
Dear Alex and All,

Thank goodness my thoughts were not irrelevant to the discussion. I'm afraid I'm not as learned or in the fields as many of the distinguished scholars on this site, but somehow what we hear over time, does not get lost, and as with this particular issue, I thought I might share my brain. [lol].

I heard lead used over time, and or in large quantities as well can and has led to people's becoming somewhat unbalanced, even insanity. With all that HIH was going through, this could only add to the sad things that evolved over time, perhaps, mentally and physically. I don't know if at the time makeup was used extensively over the face, but the 'added use of powder, which is lead based', can only add to the overall dosage, so to speak. Whew, now I can rest.

Tatiana [Tania]

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Re: Alexandra and her Health
« Reply #287 on: August 25, 2005, 02:02:17 AM »
Dear Alex and All,

How many times has 'history' been written, and rewritten, and we still don't have all of it down pat. Of course history, facts, issues, can somehow and sometimes become a very 'heated' action. But I like to think of it in terms especially on this website, that we all have a right to offer our insights. Nothing is set in stone.

Let's just put that faith so to speak in action, and allow positive energy to flow. I know we can do it. In difference to the many hardships that life holds, at least here, let's make it the best in offering our best.

Tania

Offline Belochka

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Re: Alexandra and her Health
« Reply #288 on: August 25, 2005, 02:24:19 AM »
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I heard lead used over time, and or in large quantities as well can and has led to people's becoming somewhat unbalanced, even insanity. With all that HIH was going through, this could only add to the sad things that evolved over time, perhaps, mentally and physically. I don't know if at the time makeup was used extensively over the face, but the 'added use of powder, which is lead based', can only add to the overall dosage, so to speak. Tatiana [Tania]


Hi Tatiana,

Welcome to this discussion. You have raised an extremely interesting point, which will add to our inquiry very nicely.

I understand that some cosmetics did in fact contain lead, which would have been absorbed subcutaneously, and with prolonged usage would have permeated the blood-brain barrier.

Egyptians applied a powdery substance called kohl in order to beautify their eyes. It was densely applied onto the skin around the eyes.

Specifically, I have no knowledge as to whether Kohl was incorporated into cosmetics during Alexandra's era.

Some hair dyes contained a lead component.

While exposure to leads to a diversity of symptoms in adults, we can briefly list the following:

. abdominal pain/cramping
. muscular weakness,
. headaches,
. constipation,
. sleeping disorder
. anemia
. hypertension,
. lethagy
. seizures
. aggressive behavior
. irritability

Perhaps one of our posters can offer more information about Alexandra's use of make-up?

There may be a correlation with Alexandra's use of lead-based cosmetics and her documented illnesses.

Thanks for your wonderful thoughtful contribution Tatiana!

Belochka  ;D



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Offline Belochka

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Re: Alexandra and her Health
« Reply #289 on: August 25, 2005, 03:03:20 AM »
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Dear Alex and All,

How many times has 'history' been written, and rewritten, and we still don't have all of it down pat. Of course history, facts, issues, can somehow and sometimes become a very 'heated' action. But I like to think of it in terms especially on this website, that we all have a right to offer our insights. Nothing is set in stone.

Let's just put that faith so to speak in action, and allow positive energy to flow. I know we can do it. In difference to the many hardships that life holds, at least here, let's make it the best in offering our best.


Hi Tatiana,

You have encapsulated everything perfectly!

Thank you kindly.

We should all take a moment and appreciate Tatiana's wisdom.

It is up to all of us to help maintain an informative stimulating forum whilst maintaining respect towards one other.

Belochka  :)



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Offline CountessKate

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Re: Alexandra and her Health
« Reply #290 on: August 25, 2005, 03:42:20 AM »
It would have been extremely unlikely that the Empress would have worn cosmetics to any degree - it was very much disapproved of for gentlewoman of her era and especially at Queen Victoria's court in her formative years.  Indeed, English debutantes of the 1920s wrote of how their Victorian/Edwardian mothers were very hostile to 'paint' and only a little 'pearl powder' - this was a mild cosmetic and not lead-based - was considered acceptable.  Women who used cosmetics more freely were considered 'fast' and given Alix's views on 'fast' society, it would hardly be in character for her to have used lead-based cosmetics to a degree which would have injured her health.

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Re: Alexandra and her Health
« Reply #291 on: August 25, 2005, 03:50:50 AM »
According the Maria Pavlovna, commercial cosmetics were 'unheard of' in Russia at the time and particularly among the Imperial Family. She wrote that Ella made her own skin preparations of natural products (cucumber & cream) and it seems likely that Alexandra would have probably used the same natural preparations.

Whether Alexandra's symptoms were psychosomatic in origin, remains open to question but I am sure someone with Helen's & Belochka's medical knowledge could tell us that a very large number - far larger than is normally assumed to be the case - of illness are psychosomatic in origin (& I myself have witnessed this on many occasions where the initial illness cane be traced back to a traumatic or series of traumatic events and the mind reflects itself onto the body, as it were). This doesn't make the Empress any more 'disturbed' than any other person on the planet, nor does it make her illnesses less real.

She also suffered from frequent ear infections (which may have been genetic - since the Kaiser & his sisters also suffered the same problem). Other 'family' illnesses included gout and rheumatism, perhaps exacerbated by badly-heated rooms, and - in Alix's case - a climate to which she wasn't accustomed.

Considering the effects of Alexandra's background on her psychological state, I believe that not only the death of her mother and sister made her prone to gloom, but also the fact shortly after her birth Frittie had died which left her mother in a state of deep depression. A similar case can be seen in Moretta of Prussia (whose mother was in mourning for Sigismund in Moretta's earliest months of life and as a small child she had a great horror of women dressed in black).

Another often overlooked point is, I think, Alix's position in the family. She was 'mothered' by her elder sisters and as the youngest surviving child was doubtlessly more 'looked after' than the older ones. Then suddenly she found herself in a position of great power for which she was ill-prepared, and with a husband who, much as he loved her, depended upon her. To add to this, Ella, who had always been 'a big sister' was now her social inferior. Psychologically this must have been quite difficult for Alix to deal with.

If these were some of the difficulties she faced - not to mention the more glaring stress of not giving birth to an heir for over 10 years...and then to find him suffering from haemophilia - it is little wonder that at times her behaviour seems erratic. With responsibility for her son, and to a large extent for her husband, she was also exhausted. In such a state anyone might be prone to palpitations, and the myriad of other ailments from which she suffered. I am trying to make the point that her behaviour was really quite 'normal' for anyone in that situation. Even an eminent doctor might view it as hysterical - for outwardly that must have been on occasions how it appear. But even the most eminent doctor of the time did not have out hindsight to take all these factors into account. I believe she was simply in a very difficult position and the stress of that caused outward physical symptoms as well as psychological difficulties. Perhaps a better understanding could be gained not from 'outsiders' - even medical practitioners who knew her well - but from her own accounts, letters etc.
Perhaps Helen, who has great insight into this, could help us with some of Alexandra's own accounts of her difficulties.  :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by bluetoria »

Offline Tsarfan

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Re: Alexandra and her Health
« Reply #292 on: August 25, 2005, 04:04:46 AM »
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I remember once reading that Queen Alexandra used "porcelan" on her face as make-up.  I don't know what it was made of, but I will do research.

Now Alix was much younger than her Aunt, so perhaps would not have gone to that extent, but makeup could have been a factor (Max Factor  ;D).

We should check it out.


It's an interesting point but apparently hard to check out.

About a year ago, I saw a documentary on Max Factor that touched on the use of make-up by the imperial family.  Max Factor was the wig-maker and make-up artist to the Maryinsky theater (if I remember correctly).  As such he was engaged to assist Alexandra and her daughters with their make-up for official photo shoots.  One of the points the documentary made was that during that era, the use of make-up was viewed as something done primarily by theater people and women of questionable morals.  Women of good breeding seldom used it and therefore had little experience with how to apply it correctly.

Indeed, in examing various photos of Alexandra, she does seem "made up" in the official photos but not in the private family photos.

I could find little published on this topic and consequently did quite a bit of internet research . . . to little result.  Perhaps others have access to sources I could not find?

(This is a modification to my original post:  The above two messages were posted while I was writing mine.  They apparently do have access to additional materials on the topic, and they seem to square with the info in the Max Factor documentary.)

There is an epilogue to the Max Factor story.  As a member of the tsar's household (as were all staff in the royal ballet and theaters), he had to procure the tsar's permission to marry.  He was Jewish, and that permission was denied him.  Consequently he left Russia and went to the U.S., where he established himself as the premiere make-up artist to the budding motion picture industry.  From there, he went on to invent or improve several now-ubiquitous products for the cosmetics industry.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Tsarfan »

Offline Belochka

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Re: Alexandra and her Health
« Reply #293 on: August 25, 2005, 05:00:07 AM »
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It would have been extremely unlikely that the Empress would have worn cosmetics to any degree - it was very much disapproved of for gentlewoman of her era and especially at Queen Victoria's court in her formative years.


Hi CountessKate,

Thank you for your posting.

We need evidence which specifically states that Alexandra refrained from using facial powder or other types of cosmetics.

Is there any documented evidence which confirms CountessKate' statement?


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Offline Belochka

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Re: Alexandra and her Health
« Reply #294 on: August 25, 2005, 06:10:17 AM »
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According the Maria Pavlovna, commercial cosmetics were 'unheard of' in Russia at the time and particularly among the Imperial Family. She wrote that Ella made her own skin preparations of natural products (cucumber & cream) and it seems likely that Alexandra would have probably used the same natural preparations.  


Bluetoria,

Could you please provide a citation for Mariya Pavlovna's claim? I ask because it is vital to provide all our information with references as far as practicable, so that we call verify any claims at a later date.

With time I hope to compile a Table that will feature all the symptomologies with which Alexandra presented from her early childhood to her final years.

We need to identify possible trends in her behavior, and what triggers may have precipitated the onset of her symptoms.

Quote
Whether Alexandra's symptoms were psychosomatic in origin, remains open to question .... traced back to a traumatic or series of traumatic events


Any psychosomatic disturbances are an important consideration. We need to distinguish whether her symptoms were organic or as a result of emotional factors.  

Quote
She also suffered from frequent ear infections (which may have been genetic - since the Kaiser & his sisters also suffered the same problem). Other 'family' illnesses included gout and rheumatism, perhaps exacerbated by badly-heated rooms, and - in Alix's case - a climate to which she wasn't accustomed.


This is great information Bluetoria. I was unaware of these problems. Do we have a citation please?

Quote
... not only the death of her mother and sister made her prone to gloom, but also the fact shortly after her birth Frittie had died which left her mother in a state of deep depression.


These are vital contributing factors which provide a foundation for our investigations. Familial trauma experienced at an early age may have contributed to Alexandra's shy and capricious youthful demeanor.

Quote
Another often overlooked point is, I think, Alix's position in the family. She was 'mothered' by her elder sisters and as the youngest surviving child was doubtlessly more 'looked after' than the older ones. .


This is yet another important familial interfacing that will assist with our assessment.

What part did Queen Victoria play in this schema do you think? What emotional influences did Q.V. empower over Alexandra?

Quote
Then suddenly she found herself in a position of great power for which she was ill-prepared, and with a husband who, much as he loved her, depended upon her. To add to this, Ella, who had always been 'a big sister' was now her social inferior. Psychologically this must have been quite difficult for Alix to deal with.


Wonderful issues here Bluetoria. I do not believe that Alexandra had any difficulty to reverse roles. She fully comprehended her position as the future consort to the new Emperor, from the first day after she became bethrothed to Nikolai - perhaps you may recall what occured in Livadia upon Alexander III's death?

Quote
.... stress of not giving birth to an heir for over 10 years...and then to find him suffering from haemophilia... In such a state anyone might be prone to palpitations, and the myriad of other ailments from which she suffered. Even an eminent doctor might view it as hysterical .... I believe she was simply in a very difficult position and the stress of that caused outward physical symptoms as well as psychological difficulties.


However we cannot discount that her apparent Hysteria may have been attributed to her diassociative behaviour. She was comprehended the nature of hemophilia, and held herself responsible for Alexei's incurable condition. Without question this was her greatest emotional burden to bare - a burden she carried for for 13 years.

Thank you so much for your very informative well thought out posting!  :)


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Offline ChristineM

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Re: Alexandra and her Health
« Reply #295 on: August 25, 2005, 06:37:29 AM »
I am so happy this thread has not just survived, but is going from strength to strength.  Thanks so much Belochka for raising this hugely important issue.   I actually do believe that answers to the outcome of the history of the 20th century may well lie in this question.   That's how important it is to me.   Indeed, I would have to say, I think this thread has the potential of becoming one of the most significant on the entire Board.

I have felt for many years this is an area which has been virtually completely ignored.    We all know the results only too well.   Historians, through the decades, have failed to look for the reasons.  Perhaps they thought them unimportant.   I, for one, consider them hugely important.  

Thankfully, after initial hiccups, we can now get round to asking questions and seeking answers - both of which, in my opinion, historians universally have singularly failed to do.  

May I humbly suggest we endeavour (problematic given the distances and time differences involved, I know) that we 'start at the very beginning'... and progress chronologically.

First of all however, I will respond as best I can to Tania's point re makeup and return to the known upheavals in Alexandra's early life later.

A shiny or oily skin was not considered attractive in a lady.   So far as I know, one of the methods used to overcome this problem was to dip a powder puff in the flour from oatmeal and powder the face.   Whether or not Alexandra did this, I am afraid I cannot say.   However, I think it highly possible.  

Alexandra was blighted with red blotchy marks appearing on her face, throat and chest (a point we MUST return to later).   A pure, pearly white complexion was highly prized.   In summer, both Alexandra and her sister Elizabeth used parasols which had dark green lining.    Green face powder was traditionally used to counteract blushing or redness of the complexion.   I am afraid I am unaware of its consituent parts.

I know, because I have seen it - I now have bought a variety of replicas in a variety of semi-precious stones - that Alexandra used a small face roller.   The one I was shown was made of amber.   If I recall correctly, there were two rollers - a large (two and a half inches approx.) roller at one end of a small gold rod with a smaller (one inch) at the other end.   She used this to encourage lymphatic drainage.   The large end for the entire face and neck and the smaller for more inaccessible areas around the eyes, nose and mouth.

I hope these remarks offer some illumination.

tsaria  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by tsaria »

Offline Belochka

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Re: Alexandra and her Health
« Reply #296 on: August 25, 2005, 06:37:33 AM »
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John Rohl, Martin Warren and David Hunt's 'Purple Secret' in which they suggest Alix suffered from porphyria, a metabolic disease inherited probably through Princess Alice and her ancestors descended from Mary Stuart.  Perhaps a physical condition might explain a variety of mental problems as well?


I have doubts that Alexandra presented with porphyria, which if in its inherited form has an extremely low occurrence. Such a condition is often triggered by environmental factors, such as use of drugs and exposure to solar radiation. Blistering of the external parts of the skin are an important clinical observation for most forms of this condition.

Neurological disturbances seen with porphyria can involve such events as confusion and hallucinations.

In the absence of confirmationary urine tests, we will not be able to offer a safe assessment.

Therefore we must ignore the possibilty of Alexandra having ever suffered with this condition.

Perhaps there are posters who disagree?  

Thank you CountessKate for your generously offering your information towards our discussion. :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Belochka »


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Offline ChristineM

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Re: Alexandra and her Health
« Reply #297 on: August 25, 2005, 06:46:48 AM »
Belochka - I have seen an a laboratory report on the analysis of Alexandra Feodorovna's urine.   Unfortunately this was in Russian and, even if I could have interpreted the early 20th century handwritten report, I would have been unable to interpret the science.

Unfortunately I cannot even tell you the date of this urine analysis.   I only know it exists which does indicate her doctors were looking to her urine for an answer to some medical problem.

I will endeavour to retrieve this, historically significant, document.   I cannot guarantee my success.

May I appeal that someone 'polices' this thread.   If we really are to make anything substantial of this subject, we need focus.   Jumping around from one subject to another, I fear, will not work and a huge opportunity will be lost.   I hope others agree.

tsaria
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by tsaria »

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Re: Alexandra and her Health
« Reply #298 on: August 25, 2005, 07:07:01 AM »
Thank you, Belochka.

Maria Pavlovna's claim: "Commercial cosmetics scarcely existed in Russia at the time. I believe that my aunt [Ella] had never seen rouge and she used powder very rarely. Painting the face was an art almost unknown to Russian ladies of the day, and to princesses unknown entirely. Aunt Ella made her own face lotion, a mixture of cucumber juice & sour cream."  (Things I Remember - Hutchinson London 1930)

Baronness Buxhoeveden wrote of Alix's ear problems at the time of Cousin Mossy's wedding. I need to find the references about the Kaiser's ear complaints...I'll come back to that!

Ella wrote a letter to Nicholas in April 1909: "A wee cold or rheumatic twinges or gout can't be prevented as our family all suffers from the latter...There is hardly a person who has not that."

Marie Louise also writes of suffering from persistent colds (as did the Wales girls).

With regard to 'nerves' and 'neuraesthenia' there is also a family connection:
Queen Victoria: "My nerves are still very bad. I suffer very much from hy head and from that dreadful sensitiveness." (Rohl et al.)

Buxhoeveden of Alix: "The shock of her father's death & the fatigues which followed it were too much for her. She...had to be taken for a cure to Schwalbach by her brother."

Of Mossy of Prussia, Vicky wrote: "Her nerves are not of the strongest and she is sensitive by nature" (Beloved & Darling Child - ed. Agatha Ramm)

It may be interesting to note, too, regarding 'nerves' that Marie of Roumania was liable to periods of depression in which she took to her bed. Her younger sister, Beatrice 'almost lost her mind' over the affair with Misha. The slightest stress could send Toria of Wales to her bed; Alice of Greece described Sophie of Prussia as 'a bit mad'; and Charlotte's many many illnesses described in 'Purple Secret' included Vicky's description of her 'broken down nerves."

I will try to find fuller refs. for all of these if it would be helpful.  

Offline Belochka

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Re: Alexandra and her Health
« Reply #299 on: August 25, 2005, 07:38:28 AM »
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I would like us to consider the following, in terms of psychiatric medicine:

1.  Might there be evidence that the Empress actually suffered from Acute Adjustment Disorder, which is a purely psychiatric pathology, and not a neurological condition?

2.  Might there be evidence that the Empress acutally suffered from Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, which is a purely psychiatric pathology, and which may have been induced by many, many reasons, as Tsaria and others have noted, or could, in my opinion, have been induced at the time the Empress realized she had given birth to a sick child?

3.  Might there be evidence, as Lexi4 so correctly pointed out in a previous posting of Substance Use Disorder ?

These are avenues and thoughts on which I would appreciate all of your comments as we progress in this really informative thread..


Hi Sasha,

Indeed these are excellent avenues we must investigate.

I believe that as we progress through the "evidence" offered here on this thread, we can then both attempt to construct a Table of Alexandra's known symptomologies. By supplementing our list against known clinical symptoms for the conditions which you have klindly presented here, we might be able to find a correlation.

What do think about this approach? I would appreciate your help.

Thanks very much for your support and informed suggestions!

Belochka  :)


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Belochka »


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