Alexandra as Empress and Mother

[snugglemummy]

Sorry to hark back to the earlier conversation about Alexandra writing letters to her children, but I came into this thread late. Actually, I've just written my opinion about this subject in a thread on the Maria board, and then I found this discussion. This discussion forum is so huge!

I strongly believe it is an error to judge Alexandra and her mothering style based on a couple of letters. Especially when, in FOTR, they were taken so very much out of context. As others have said, we know nothing about what personal conversations preceded these letters. Actually, I thought that quite a bit in the letters to Maria suggest that there have indeed been previous conversations, and certainly Alexandra has been watching Maria and noting her emotional state for a while.

As for it being strange for a mother to write such letters to her child ... well, then I must be strange, for I sometimes write letters to my own young child after we have had a conversation on important matters, to emphasise points, direct her thoughts, and reassure her of my love with a momento she can refer back to whenever she wants. Infact, I have even preceded conversations with such letters, once or twice, to "prepare the ground" as it were. I especially find this helpful because I have a rather shy child who does not like talking about her feelings much. If I put my thoughts into a letter to her, she can read them and think about the whole matter in privacy and then she can choose if she wants to discuss it further.

Perhaps Maria was the same and so found it easier, less embarrassing, even more comforting, to have her mother write these confidential little notes to her as a way of opening the discussion.

My reading of the various material and studying photos lead me to believe that Alexandra was an exceptional mother for her era and a good mother for any era. I think, as others have opined, that she would have probably been ever better had she lived in a more modern age and/or not been the Empress of Russia.

Also, I know from personal experience what it is like having a child with a serious health condition, and I think that no one can analyse Alexandra's character or parenting style without seriously understanding and sympathising with this situation.

Sarah.

[snugglemummy]

Oops, I should clarify something before people start yelling at me! ;-) When I said "no one can analyse Alexandra's character or parenting style without seriously understanding and sympathising with this situation", I didn't mean that one had to be in that same situation to understand it ... only that being the mother of a seriously ill child probably affected Alexandra so profoundly that this situation must be considered the prevailing influence on her character and behaviour.

Also, I did want to add, I really doubt Alexandra would have considered keeping any of her daughters with her as an unmarried companion. She herself acknowledged her grief that one day they would all leave her as they married, probably outside of Russia, but she hoped for them to be as happy in their marriages as she was in hers.

Sarah

[Romanov_fan]

It seems to me that the above post about sums the subject up, at least for me. Well put! I think we have to try to at least understand people in history even if the understanding is sometimes flawed, because we are from a differeNt era and time. One can defend Alexandra if one wants to, that's a right..even if we may be wrong. But it seems to me writing letters was not so odd, nor do we need to go into involved explanations of writing letters. It doesn't in my opinion really serve the discussion well.  

[griffh]

It is interesting to consider that fact that Alix allowed her daughters to start visiting the Empress Dowager from 1906 to the outbreak of WWI every Sunday for lunch during the winter months at Anitchkov Palace and then the girls went on to the Grand Duchess Olga's palace where they danced, played games and had tea with wider company of friends than they mingled with at Alexander Palace.  

As the Empress Dowager was determined to broaden her grand daughters social life, she also arranged for them to visit her every morning at her Cottage during the Czar's annual summer retreat at Peterhop Palace.  The other thing that is interesting is that when Olga came of age in 1911 at the age of 16 the Czar and Czarina started holding balls at Livadia and continued to hold them for both Olga and Tatiana and they also were given balls by the Grand Duke George and others.  And these events were not limited to just the sailors on the Standard according to such particpants as Baroness de Stockel.  

Nicholas also started taking Olga to the theater in St. Petersburg on a regular basis as early as 1911.  And the other thing is that Alexandra was wanting to start Court balls again for her daughters but WWI interupted her plans.  

I believe that society was charmed by Alix's daughters.  They appeared to love to dance and wear pretty dresses and they were very charming approachable and most society matrons considered that Alix had been an admirable mother.  

One other interesting point is that many of the letters to her children were written during the time that the children's governess, Sophie Tyutcheva was spreading rumors about Rasputin undressing the girls, etc and Madame Tyutcheva went to far as to attempt to turn the older girls against their mother.  Anna V. says that Alix started to visit her daughter's less frequently in part because of Madame Tyutcheva's attitude and that this was compounded by Alix's heart troubles which started the same year.  Dr. Botkin was checking her heart twice a day and it was during this period that he advised Alix to cut back on attending many court functions.  The period I am speaking of is from 1909-1910.  

I hope that some of this information is helpful.  griff      

[Tania]

Dear Griffh,

To put it gently, one cannot gain enough information on their IH and children, for those interested in their lives. It is indeed why this wonderful Alexander Palace Discussion Board exists. Precisely as you have shared, to offer as much information to expand our everyday understanding, in full of all that was in and of 'their lives'.

I am most certain, that even after our generation has gone on, more information will evolve about them, their personal lives, etc.

Thank you, as have the many before you, for your all taking time to share information about their lives, etc.  

Nice to meet you, and belated welcome !

Tatiana+

It is interesting to consider that fact that Alix allowed her daughters to start visiting the Empress Dowager from 1906 to the outbreak of WWI every Sunday for lunch during the winter months at Anitchkov Palace and then the girls went on to the Grand Duchess Olga's palace where they danced, played games and had tea with wider company of friends than they mingled with at Alexander Palace.  

As the Empress Dowager was determined to broaden her grand daughters social life, she also arranged for them to visit her every morning at her Cottage during the Czar's annual summer retreat at Peterhop Palace.  The other thing that is interesting is that when Olga came of age in 1911 at the age of 16 the Czar and Czarina started holding balls at Livadia and continued to hold them for both Olga and Tatiana and they also were given balls by the Grand Duke George and others.  And these events were not limited to just the sailors on the Standard according to such particpants as Baroness de Stockel.  

Nicholas also started taking Olga to the theater in St. Petersburg on a regular basis as early as 1911.  And the other thing is that Alexandra was wanting to start Court balls again for her daughters but WWI interupted her plans.  

I believe that society was charmed by Alix's daughters.  They appeared to love to dance and wear pretty dresses and they were very charming approachable and most society matrons considered that Alix had been an admirable mother.  

One other interesting point is that many of the letters to her children were written during the time that the children's governess, Sophie Tyutcheva was spreading rumors about Rasputin undressing the girls, etc and Madame Tyutcheva went to far as to attempt to turn the older girls against their mother.  Anna V. says that Alix started to visit her daughter's less frequently in part because of Madame Tyutcheva's attitude and that this was compounded by Alix's heart troubles which started the same year.  Dr. Botkin was checking her heart twice a day and it was during this period that he advised Alix to cut back on attending many court functions.  The period I am speaking of is from 1909-1910.  

I hope that some of this information is helpful.  griff      

[Azarias]

Thanks Griff, your post gives a fresh slant on things!

[Romanov_fan]

Information on Alexandra's role as a mother is always appreciated, especially information that helps us judge her further. To me historical information seems more relevant than stuff from Sociology books in understanding her role as a mother.

[Azarias]

Information on Alexandra's role as a mother is always appreciated, especially information that helps us judge her further. To me historical information seems more relevant than stuff from Sociology books in understanding her role as a mother.

Perhaps both are really important. Especially when dealing with historical figures, so far removed.

[Romanov_fan]

Yes, in judging figures of the past we should always be careful to make accurate judgements because they are so far removed from us. So perhaps both are indeed important.

[Tania]

As any of us post, I agree the word in terms of making judgement should and must be based on being accurate.

As another poster stated, their are posters who have and continue to throw history out the window, and bring conjucture, and hypothetical ideas, rather than dealing and offering accurate scenerios. I do hope that in the spirit of which these wonderful threads were created, that we all continue to ask and are presented with accurate statements. Thanks for allowing me to add my kopeck !    or should I offer it in euro's, or ?  

Yes, in judging figures of the past we should always be careful to make accurate judgements because they are so far removed from us. So perhaps both are indeed important.

[Tsarina_Liz]

As any of us post, I agree the word in terms of making judgement should and must be based on being accurate.

As another poster stated, their are posters who have and continue to throw history out the window, and bring conjucture, and hypothetical ideas, rather than dealing and offering accurate scenerios. I do hope that in the spirit of which these wonderful threads were created, that we all continue to ask and are presented with accurate statements. Thanks for allowing me to add my kopeck !    or should I offer it in euro's, or ?  

Well, I do believe that was directed at me... History is more important to me than anything else one can bring to the boards here, but sometimes supplementary materials help.  They offer explanations and analysis most people wouldn't think of and can help broaden a reader's sense of the historical character.  I'm not talking phrenology or palm reading here, I am talking hardcore, proven methods of analysis like those used by sociologists and psychologists.  

Anyways... Griff mentioned something interesting about the period in which the notes in question were written (but, we should remember, not all of the notes).  It was at a time when the nursery was in turmoil because of Tyutcheva (sp?) and her campaign against against Rasputin (which I believe was in the GDs best interest).  Alexandra, Griff mentioned stayed away.  And this confuses me.  She was always the first one to jump to Rasputin's defense when he was slandered by courtiers so why did she not sack Tyutcheva right away and reclaim her daughters?  Why, excluding her episode of heart "problems", did she stay away from the nursery like that?  Was it because she knew the girls were attached to the woman?  

[Romanov_fan]

That one posters statements about what was going on at the time these notes are written is very illuminating, and helpful in my opinion, and it is this kind of information we should look for, and I agree with anybody who states that this historical information was helpful to them-it certainly was to me.

[jenjen]

What kind of mother-daughter relationship did Alix have with her girls?  There have been so many different accounts of that.  Where they all close, even Olga who often argued with Alix?  I think it has been written somewhere that they were ignored in favor of their brother.  I know he required more attention because of his illness.  Also, I wonder if the girls (especially Marie and Anastasia) felt with knowing their birth was a disappointment.  I would be hurt, but I'm not royalty.

[Janet_W.]

Hi Jenjen--

These questions have all been asked and responded to previously on this forum, but I can't blame you for not knowing that, especially since most of the categories have pages and pages of threads, and most of the threads are quite extensive. I'll do my best, then, to encapsulate my own thoughts on this topic, and perhaps others will add their own thoughts as well.

Alexandra had a very "typical" relationship with her daughters. What is "typical"? Well, it included many ups and downs, but it was loving and close, and she and her daughters were definitely bonded. Unlike many royal mothers, and indeed many Victorian/Edwardian mothers of almost station, Alexandra was a very "hands on" mother. She breastfed her daughters and she was with them as much as possible during their growing-up years. Read the letters of her daughters and you will note that she playing games with them and that they frequently spend both leisure and public time with their mother. This isn't to say that they were with her 24/7.  Nurses, nannies, governesses, tutors and--ultimately--ladies-in-waiting also played a role in taking care of Olga, Tatiana, Marie and Anastasia. But Alexandera was very much a prescense in the day-to-day lives of her daughters. Some, in fact, would say too much so . . . and in some instances, I would say they were correct.

Olga was the eldest daughter, and I know from my own experience that oldest daughters do not always have an easy time of it with their mothers, especially if those mothers are more-than-typically protective. But there is much to indicate that Olga's relationship with her mother, while at times troubled, was not seriously threatened to the point of irreparable chism. Read Olga's poem to her mother, written while they were in captivity, and you will see that Olga understood her mother and loved her very much.

Alexei, being the heir, would of course be the focal point of the family. And, as you point out, his illness also made him a center of concern. I think all four girls accepted and understood this, though of course all siblings have complaints about each other at times, and it had to have crossed their minds on occasion that such-and-such wasn't fair. But such thoughts probably would not have lingered, for after all it was a male-centered culture, and the sensibilities of 100 years ago are not the sensibilities of today.

Much has been made of Marie's sensitivite nature, and I would agree that as a "middle child" she no doubt had issues related to that fact. I don't think, however, she was aware of her birth being "a disappointment." Most of us know about the initial reaction of her father to her birth, but we also know that Nicholas loved Marie very much, declaring her to be the family angel. As for Anastasia, I would not doubt that much of her bumptious personality was related to the fact that she was the fourth girl, followed by the only boy, and therefore had to do SOMETHING to get attention. But again, I doubt she was intellectually aware of her birth being a "disappointment."

[Tsarina_Liz]

What kind of mother-daughter relationship did Alix have with her girls?  There have been so many different accounts of that.  Where they all close, even Olga who often argued with Alix?  I think it has been written somewhere that they were ignored in favor of their brother.  I know he required more attention because of his illness.  Also, I wonder if the girls (especially Marie and Anastasia) felt with knowing their birth was a disappointment.  I would be hurt, but I'm not royalty.

Be it a blessing or a curse Alexandra loved her children equally.  This, however, probably did not mitigate the slights Marie and Anastasia seem to have felt over being nationally unwanted (at least at first).  But in time their parents' love and their own precociousness allowed them to carve out their own places in the family.  Anastasia, of course, became the prankster (out of a need for attention and her own outgoing personality) and Marie became a wonderfully caring, nurturing young woman with a remarkable capability to bond with almost everyone she met.  Of course all the girls came second to Alexei (especially in Alexandra's world), and this must have caused some resentment, but their parents realized each girl for who they were and made them feel special and loved no matter what.  Alexei may have been the center of Alexandra's every day world, but her girls never meant less to her and even I (who am not a huge fan of Alexandra's selfish, cold and ultimately stunting parenting) must give her credit for letting the girls grow up into distinct and fascinating young women.  Even in the tight world of the Alexander Palace the girls managed to grow in a thousand different directions, something they could not have done under a stricter or less understanding mother.