Author Topic: Nicholas II - Early Crushes - plus Mathilde and Alix  (Read 101156 times)

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Janet Whitcomb

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Re: Nicholas II - Early Crushes - plus Mathilde and Alix
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2004, 06:56:32 PM »
I apologize for not having my sources handy so as to give exact quotes with attributes . . . However, I recall Mathilde stating, in her autobiography, that Nicholas was her first lover. (In far less bold language than would be used now, however.) Prior to his involvement with her, Nicholas also--as befitted a young Tsarevich--caroused with his cousins and fellow officers. After he married, however, nothing that I have yet read contradicts the concept that he was a faithful husband. One source, in fact, mentions that as WWI wore on, and Alexandra's influence increased, there were those who tried to tempt Nicholas into relationships with "low women" so as to dilute his attachment to his wife. Nicholas, however, was very much aware of such strategies and made it clear to his ADCs that he was not to be introduced to any women at Stavka.  So, for whatever Nicholas wasn't, we can be reasonably certain that he was a loving, devoted and faithful husband.

3710

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Re: Nicholas II - Early Crushes - plus Mathilde and Alix
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2004, 05:28:28 AM »
Valmont, in a way, Russian Emperor was not THAT powerful at all. I mean they did not have that much control over their personal life and free time (look at Michael and his Natalia Vulfert).
Russian society was not worse then any other. The fact that Alexandra failed to impress it is her personal problem.
While Alexander III was alive is could be very risky to ''throw yourlsef'' openly at Nicolas (fancy a trip to your family estate away from the capital?), when he was dead, N was married and very much in love with his wife.
No, Mathilde seems to be his only love before A. Let's not ruin a beautiful story told by her! She was no gold digger (well, just used a good chance she had...)
Galina
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 3710 »

anna

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Re: Nicholas II - Early Crushes - plus Mathilde and Alix
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2004, 04:35:50 PM »
I had to dig up some books, didn't remember where I read it.

Nicholas did make some notes about his lovelife and felt rather uncertain. Seems to me he was a bit overwhelmd
by his own feelings. Some quotes:

1 april-Gatchina(1891-1892) I have noticed something very strange within myself: I never thought that two similar feelings, two loves could co-exist at one time within one heart.
I have already loved Alix for three years and constantly hope to marry her one day, God willing.The following year I fell very much in love with Olga D.(Olga Dolgorukaya) but that however has now passed! And since the camp of 1890 until now I have been very madly
(Platonically) in love with little K. What a surprising thing
our heart is! At the same time I never stop thinking of
Alix. Would it be right to conclude from all this that I am
very amorous? To a certain extent Yes; but I must add that I am a severe judge and very choosy!This is the reason for the mood I described yesterday as not very pious.


But he was (mine opinion) completely faithful to Alix. If you read their letters, they were very open to each other.

N to A- 1 sept. -Rishkovo There were any amount of Ladies, some were rather good looking with fatal eyes and they kept looking steadily at Misha and me, smiling sweetly, when we turned our heads in their direction.

A to N - 3 sept.-St. Petersburg I can see your drinking tea surrounded by a band of languishing Ladies
and I know the adorable expression of shyness which
creeps over you and makes your sweet eyes all the more dangerous. I am sure many hearts have beaten faster ever since then, you old sinner. I shall make you wear blue spectacles to frighten gay butterflies off from my too dangerous husband.


Now is this love or what!

Janet Whitcomb

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Re: Nicholas II - Early Crushes - plus Mathilde and Alix
« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2004, 11:10:07 PM »
No doubt about it--Nicholas loved Alexandra, and Alexandra loved Nicholas . . . else why would we all be here? Their great legend--which, as it turns out, was true--is the foundation for the interest that most of us have in the last Romanovs.

However, in a number of books it is clearly pointed out that Alexander III was pleased when Nicholas set up housekeeping with Kshessinskaya.  It was, after all, the expected and "manly" thing to do, and also--so thought Alexander--a distraction from Princess Alix.  Speaking for myself, I find it all the more compelling that Nicholas eventually put aside his single, relatively carefree life, to marry the woman he wanted to bear his children, and who also would help him bear all the pressures and difficulties he knew would be his once he was Tsar.

Offline Greg_King

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Re: Nicholas II - Early Crushes - plus Mathilde and Alix
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2004, 02:53:03 AM »
The quote regarding the relationship between Nicholas and Kschessinska being platonic comes in an 1892 entry in the Tsesarevich's diary: "Since the camp of 1890 until now I have been madly (platonically) in love with little K.”(Nicholas II’s Diary, 1 April, 1892, in GARF, F. 601, Op. 1, D. 52)

Throughout 1891-92, it seems the burgeoning romance went no further, as Nicholas indicated in his diary by the careful inclusion of the word “platonically.”  Nicholas was encumbered where Kschessinska was concerned by one annoying fact: she still lived with her mother and father.  In the fall of 1892, Mathilde asked Nicholas to purchase the house at No. 18 English Embankment as her new residence.  Although its previous tenants had included the composer Rimsky-Korsakov, it was infamous in the Imperial capital as the house where Grand Duke Konstantin Nikolaievich had lived with his own mistress, the ballerina Kuznetsova; after this, Grand Duke Nicholas Nikolaievich Senior had lived within its walls with his ballerina Chislova, and their four illegitimate children.

Writing her memoirs in the 1950s, with her husband Grand Duke Andrei Vladimirovich still living and helping translate the text, Kschessinska could scarcely reveal the intimate details of what took place in her relationship with the Tsesarevich.   Yet if her memoirs are interesting for what they left unsaid, they are also unreliable in many instances.  According to Kschessinska, Nicholas often complained that he had “only a vague feeling for Princess Alix,” and that he looked on what he hoped would be his eventual engagement to her as “an unavoidable necessity.”(Kschessinska, 39)  This is so patently untrue that it calls Kschessinska’s veracity into question.  Kschessinska freely admits in her book, she closely studied numerous works on Imperial Russia, including Nicholas’s published diary and the letters of the Emperor and Empress, before beginning her own memoirs.  And while she selectively quoted from several of them, she ignored the wealth of evidence that indicated that to Nicholas she was nothing more than a diversion on his determined road to win Princess Alix of Hesse.

Kschessinska remained silent on the affair, and we can only weave together the few assorted pieces in an attempt to form a representative picture of what took place.  By the beginning of 1893, however, it seems the pair had crossed from flirtatious romance to sexual adventure.  Okhrana agents, charged with shadowing the Tsesarevich as he moved round Petersburg, noted that he often remained at Kschessinska's house “until sunrise.”  “In the evening,” Nicholas wrote in his diary in January, “I dashed off to see my K. and spent the best night with her yet.  I am still under her spell-my pen is trembling in my hand!”(Nicholas II’s Diary, 25 January 1893, in GARF, F. 601, Op. 1, D. 54)

The implications are obvious.  That Mathilde did not record any prurient details in her memoirs should not be surprising; but nor is it surprising that Nicholas should have been just as reticent in his own diary in describing details of the relationship.  First, the reference by Nicholas to his “platonic” love for Kschessinska in April, 1892, is the only such mention to be found in his diary; by the end of the year, the ballerina had been installed in her own house, allowing the Tsesarevich to visit her in a privacy which had previously been denied.  As his diary indicates, once Kschessinska was installed in her own residence, Nicholas regularly visited her and even spent the night, the effects of which, as noted above, left him “trembling.”  What, one must ask, were the pair doing all night long to evoke such a reaction?  While the answer is obvious, there is no further evidence to be found in Nicholas’s diary.  This is not unusual, not only given Nicholas’s character and methodical habit of laconic entries, but more importantly the times in which he lived.  Being first and foremost a gentleman, it is unthinkable that Nicholas would have recorded either passionate feelings nor sexual details in a diary which he knew would, by virtue of his position, one day be read by others; even the night of his wedding is left in the abyss, the following morning’s entry commencing with a simple statement of fact regarding his status as a married man.  Then, too, there is Nicholas’s “confession” to Alix of Hesse on their engagement.  We do not know what was said, though Nicholas clearly felt it to be some indiscretion he was forced to admit.  Alix’s reply, written in his diary, leaves little doubt but that she herself regarded it as a “sin,” even if morality forbade her from naming it.  She forgave him, quoting from the Bible by writing, “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins.”(Alexandra, writing in Nicholas II’s Diary, 14 April 1894, in GARF, F. 601, Op. 1, D. 56)  A “platonic” friendship between Nicholas and Kschessinska would scarcely warrant such magnanimous forgiveness, nor the deliberate use of the Biblical idea of sin, even for the morally prim Alix of Hesse.  One is therefore forced to conclude that, in the end, Kschessinska got exactly what she wanted from Nicholas, and took him to her bed in triumph in early 1893.

Greg King

Offline Greg_King

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Re: Nicholas II - Early Crushes - plus Mathilde and Alix
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2004, 03:04:19 AM »
Quote
No, Mathilde seems to be his only love before A. Let's not ruin a beautiful story told by her! She was no gold digger (well, just used a good chance she had...)
Galina


With all respect, I have to disagree with your statement above regarding MK.  I recently did a very lengthy article on her life and house in Petersburg, and for the first time read and analysed a number of accounts from those who knew MK well.  And the picture that emerges is of a woman completely obsessed with power and money, who made enemies left and right (and didn't care that she did so), who used first Nicholas, then Grand Dukes Serge Mikhailovich and Andrei Vladimirovich, to enrich her own coffers and reputation.  I could find few people who knew her well who actually liked her.  She continually demanded special treatment and favors throughout Nicholas's reign; used her influence to remove those who stood in her way; sacrificed her own brother in the wake of the 1905 Revolution as a token for acts in which she had been involved; interferred in Diaghilev's Ballets Russe; and during the War was almost certainly involved in corrupt deals with French artillery manufacturers, to the point where Serge Mikhailovich was forced by the Emperor to resign his position.  I was surprised at how vile a person she seems to have been, and I had no preconceptions about her.  I think Empress Alexandra got it right when she essentially accused her of treason in her letters to Nicholas.

Greg King

Jackswife

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Re: Nicholas II - Early Crushes - plus Mathilde and Alix
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2004, 10:43:42 AM »
 :o Certainly contradicts the impression I always had of her, that she was an innocent little plaything for the Russian nobility! ;) Quite a fascinating post. I know I myself have a tendency to white-out a lot of the flaws in historic figures, when really all along most of them were just ordinary flawed human beings (for the most part).

Janet_Ashton

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Re: Nicholas II - Early Crushes - plus Mathilde and Alix
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2004, 01:31:49 PM »
Quote
:o Certainly contradicts the impression I always had of her, that she was an innocent little plaything for the Russian nobility! ;) Quite a fascinating post. I know I myself have a tendency to white-out a lot of the flaws in historic figures, when really all along most of them were just ordinary flawed human beings (for the most part).


I should add that Greg's Atlantis article on Kschessinska, in addition to being extremely incisive,
is also killingly funny. How does one beat a line that runs:
"Had she set up camp in a red tent in the middle of Palace Square she couldn't have drawn more deliberate attention on her relationship with the Heir".?? :-) :-) :-)

Janet

Jackswife

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Re: Nicholas II - Early Crushes - plus Mathilde and Alix
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2004, 01:56:48 PM »
 Is it available online? I'm not familiar with "Atlantis"-I thought at first it ws "Atlantic Monthly." :-[

Janet_Ashton

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Re: Nicholas II - Early Crushes - plus Mathilde and Alix
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2004, 02:31:19 PM »
Quote
Is it available online? I'm not familiar with "Atlantis"-I thought at first it ws "Atlantic Monthly." :-[



The website is  www.atlantis-magazine.com - no articles online though - it's a subscription-only Russian history magazine.  If interested, you email the editors.
I wasn't deliberately advertising it, honestly! :-)

Janet

Jackswife

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Re: Nicholas II - Early Crushes - plus Mathilde and Alix
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2004, 03:35:12 PM »
 :D Excellent-will probably scrape up the bucks to get this. It looks like a really well-done periodical. Thanks.

3710

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Re: Nicholas II - Early Crushes - plus Mathilde and Alix
« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2004, 07:34:51 AM »
Greg, poor ''little M''! When you do not like someone you DO NOT LIKE them. Yes, I know it is nothing personal...
Was it Volkonsky who said that she had so many enemies cause she always won at the end?  Russians do not like winners, they like loosers.
She was a good ballerina and would you really blame her for using her influence to secure her position? Competition was very serious. If she has ''used'' N, SM, AV, they seemed to be very willing and happy participants. ( I can just applaude to her as a woman. To handle 2 men at a time and to keep both happy? Well done!)
What she did not make in virtue, she compensated by her  energy, zest for life, style. No angel but great character nethetheless.
I would disagree that just everyone loathed her. I can  think of memories of Volkonsky (who has been sacked for arguing with her), Kiasht I have by hand, but surely there were others who wrote about her  with sympathy. People who provided shelter after the Revolution (when it was actually dangerous?) and kept on  socialising with her in exile, when there would have been no advantages to do that?
And then again, was she not like Vyrubova one of ''icons'' of the time, whom people would blame for just everything. (Alexandra was herself accused of treason, so who is she to blame M? GD Sergei was probably not a very efficient head of Artillery. There was a joke about his ''skills'':We have good ballet and poor artillery'' And of course he denied all M's wrong doings  writting to N.).

She has built herself a monument in St.P. Her house was and will probably always be  ''Kshessinskaia's mansion''.
Of course she was not telling  the whole truth in her memories, would she admit that she might have been a sexual training ground for N? Never.
Galina
(A fan of'' little M.'')

PS The  house N. bought/(rented?) for her  was on English prospect, not English Embankment (a bit TOO close to the Winter Palace for the sake of propriety?)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 3710 »

Offline Greg_King

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Re: Nicholas II - Early Crushes - plus Mathilde and Alix
« Reply #27 on: March 15, 2004, 07:47:48 AM »
Quote
Greg, poor ''little M''. When you do not like someone you DO NOT LIKE them.
Was it Volkonsky who said that she had so many enemies cause she always won at the end?  She was a good ballerina and would you really blame her for using her influence to secure her position? Competition was very serious. If she has ''used'' N, SM, AV, they seemed to be very willing and happy participants. ( I can just applaude to her as a woman. To handle 2 men at a time and to keep both happy? Well done!)
She had energy, zest for life, she had style, her memories is an exiting read. I would disagree that just everyone loathed her. I can  think of memories of Volkonsky, Kiasht I have by hand, but surely there were others who wrote about her  with sympathy. And then again, was she not like Vyrubova one of ''icons'' of the time, whom people would blame for just everything. (Alexandra was herself accused of treason, so who is she to blame M?).
She might have had a point presenting her complains to GD and N as an attack on them.
She has built herself a monument in St.P. Her house was and probably will be  ''Kshessinskaia's mansion''.
PS The first hosue was on English prospect, not English Embankment (a bit TOO close to the Winter Palace for the sake of propriety?)
Galina
(A fan of'' little M.'')


Oh well, like her if you must! :)  But as I say, she really went above and beyond in manipulating and using people to enhance her finances and reputation.  I just can't see too much that's admirable about someone who played with people the way she did.

And yes, Alix was accused of treason-but unlike MK-there's no evidence to support such an assertion, whereas with MK-well, there's a lot more than mere accusation and insinuation.  I agree-I enjoy her memoirs-and I adore her house on Kronversky Prospekt.  But I'm afraid that, for me, she really was a most unsympathetic character in every way.

Greg King

Jmentanko

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Re: Nicholas II - Early Crushes - plus Mathilde and Alix
« Reply #28 on: March 15, 2004, 03:37:08 PM »
   As far as I'm concerned Mathilde did what she could to live the good life. Good for her!

3710

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Re: Nicholas II - Early Crushes - plus Mathilde and Alix
« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2004, 03:29:07 AM »
Greg, you are right- our personal likes and dislikes are irrelevant. What matters is that shy, gentle, decent Romanovs found this revolting woman totally irresistable :P
Can i just add one more ''character reference'':
''Her scoldings were usually delivered in such a charming fasion that the culpit rather enjoyed them then otherwise, always supposing, that is , that she was not indulging in what the ballet termed ''Her imperial indignation''. As a matter of fact, in spite of the fact that she was extremely quick tempered and prone to take offence at trifles, she possessed very few enemies, and those she had, once they met her, were speedily converted into frineds. Personally, I think even notorious Lenin would have succumbed to her charms, and presented her with her own house if he had met and talked to her before first taking possession'' Lydia Kyasht ''Romantic Recollections'' I am quite sure I would have found more if I had some time on my hands.
Galina
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 3710 »